SPADs/Route Learning

[bGriff]

Just an interesting question.

Has anyone actually experienced an unintentional SPAD whilst playing Railworks?

I find the only way it'd happen is without the HUD on, but the amount of time to learn a route to be able to drive it without the HUD I think puts off people from driving without it. I'm wondering whether there is a way to implement a route learning ability into the game?

[transadelaide]

Has anyone actually experienced an unintentional SPAD whilst playing Railworks?

Yes. I would be surprised if there was anybody who had gone more than a few hours of play time without at least one.

I find the only way it'd happen is without the HUD on, but the amount of time to learn a route to be able to drive it without the HUD I think puts off people from driving without it.

The other ways that could quite easily happen is by still getting the hang of how the controls work (especially steam driving with the far from intuitive vacuum braking system), being surprised by the rolling stock's braking being poorer than expected, by paying attention to the scenery, or if the signals have been placed with inadequate stopping distances and/or inappropriate speed limits.

The HUD is an acceptable substitute for 'proper' route knowledge that is entirely necessary for TS2012 to be accessible to more than just a handful of nerdy old foamers. The whole appeal of using a simulation game rather than going out and getting a job as a train driver is to have some small approximation of the experience without the mundane training and administration, and to be able to experience a variety of different settings.

One practical thing that obstructs non-HUD driving is the nature of the scenery, which in many routes is very generic and doesn't leave many distinctive landmarks. Much of the southern part of Bath-Templecombe is like this, where it's hard to tell the different villages from each other when it seems every single one has a (heading south) right hand curve followed by the station and then a small goods yard on the left.

I'm wondering whether there is a way to implement a route learning ability into the game?

Why does anything special need to be added for this when you already have the ability to go over it a whole bunch of times? Granted, driving it in TS2012 is not the same as sitting in as a passenger but with many of the diesel and electric vehicles it's only a couple of keyboard presses harder than riding as a passenger. There are many other features and improvements that should probably be developed first.

If you're the kind of person who gets a kick out of routines and procedures like learning one route properly and driving only one or two different trains/sets like a real driver, then the game caters for you already. At the same time, the program has to accommodate people who want to jump in and drive a legendary route like Cajon Pass at a whim. Most people who take a hardline 'real' approach should probably lighten up every once in a while and appreciate something different (even if they need the HUD) and those who like variety might also appreciate the challenge of getting to the point of going without the HUD on a short section of a favourite route.

[brummie]

Hi Transadelaide,

That was a very good and well balanced answer you gave me thinks.

I would say that the only time I do a SPAD, is either when I rarely go 'out of cab', usually on a new route and am not paying attention to the signals, or as you pointed out, sometimes bad placement of signals where you don't have time to stop.
I think it would be difficult to learn a route whereby you didn't need to use the HUD or other driving aids but I remember reading on these forums that there are some who can do this. On the old MSTS London to Brighton I could drive that for long stretches without any aids but alas I would always have to refer to them at some stage during the scenarios.

[transadelaide]

I think it would be difficult to learn a route whereby you didn't need to use the HUD or other driving aids but I remember reading on these forums that there are some who can do this.

There are a few sections on Oxford-Paddington, Newcastle-York, Barstow-San Bernardino and I think WCML North as well where I can do this for some amount of time, but not for any whole route. I think that's a function of having lots scenarios for those routes, and some bits being more memorable than others.

On the whole I like my variety more than my operational realism so I'm never going to make deliberate efforts to learn a whole route so well I can go without the HUD, but I know there are others who prefer it the other way around. It's a good thing there are options that allow both types of people (and those in the middle like me) to enjoy the experience in the same program!

[Kariban]

I think I made a post asking much the same question once, there aren't many routes I can drive without the HUD at all ( only B&E I think, some I can do parts of ) but there's no real alternative to just driving a lot. I learned B&E by making full length scenarios for it and driving, and just realised I was using F3 as a crutch at some point and tried without it.

As for spads, all the time

[1S811985]

Has anyone actually experienced an unintentional SPAD whilst playing Railworks?

Isn't every SPAD unintentional? Anyway, the answers yes, more often than I'd like to admit.

I find the only way it'd happen is without the HUD on, but the amount of time to learn a route to be able to drive it without the HUD I think puts off people from driving without it.

Everyone's different and there's no right or wrong way when it comes to this. Personally I think you get so much more in the way of immersion out of the HUD free experience that its worth spending a bit of time building up route knowledge. Don't be put off by those trying to make out that it's an impossible or endless task, it's neither. And while I'm happy to agree that HUD free driving isn't going to be for everyone I'd encourage anyone who asks to at least have a try at it.

I'm wondering whether there is a way to implement a route learning ability into the game?

There is, just drive the route a few times with a mind to learning it! Use the F4 the first time. Then try using just the F3/F5 combination instead, then try covering the next signal indicator with a bit of post-it or card. Then try turning off the F3 and running just on the F5. I do that with every route I get, setting up simple end to end scenarios, no AI, with passing times at every major marker so that they show up in the F4.

Give it a go. You're missing the full Railworks experience by keeping the stabilisers on!

1S81

[michaeldono]

I think it would be difficult to learn a route whereby you didn't need to use the HUD or other driving aids but I remember reading on these forums that there are some who can do this.
I think that's a function of having lots scenarios for those routes, and some bits being more memorable than others.

There's a certain bit on WCML North that I always remember to look out for, that 40mph bridge as you leave Mossend, heading south but avoiding Motherwell.

[msey0002]

I try not to use the HUD as much as I can, although I will put the F3 on from time to time.

That said, I can drive the E-G route without any aids no problem at all, but I can't do this with any other route

[transadelaide]

I think it would be difficult to learn a route whereby you didn't need to use the HUD or other driving aids but I remember reading on these forums that there are some who can do this.
I think that's a function of having lots scenarios for those routes, and some bits being more memorable than others.

There's a certain bit on WCML North that I always remember to look out for, that 40mph bridge as you leave Mossend, heading south but avoiding Motherwell.

Can you quote more carefully please, you make my post look like it was a load of nonsense by mashing together bits of my post and a nested quote. The bit you were quoting should look like this...

I think it would be difficult to learn a route whereby you didn't need to use the HUD or other driving aids but I remember reading on these forums that there are some who can do this.

There are a few sections on Oxford-Paddington, Newcastle-York, Barstow-San Bernardino and I think WCML North as well where I can do this for some amount of time, but not for any whole route. I think that's a function of having lots scenarios for those routes, and some bits being more memorable than others.

[whiterider]

It is quite easy to learn a short route or a well detailed route.
I learnt London to Brighton in a matter of days and can now drive the whole route with just the 'F5' display, I can also do it for the WCML North for sections. Oxford to Paddington I can do the fast runs where you stop at Reading, Didcot and Oxford and they have some quite significant stand out sections just before the stations. And the PDL on fast/semi-fast runs, if you use the route often you really tend to pick it up quite quickly, even with the F4 there you can forget it's there at times.
Personally I like the F4 view as it isn't so much that it tells you everything but it gives the user a good estimate on where to begin braking and how long it is to the next stop etc. It's also good for route learning as it helps you to locate signals easier and I have found it useful in learning speed limits. It is also good for routes you don't tend to play but just fancy a change, for me something like Donner Pass would be were I would use F4 as I don't have a clue.
As for SPADs I used to get them but don't tend to have too many now unless I leave the cab for whatever reason.
I thoroughly recommend learning routes as they can give you a hell of a lot more immersion and I've found a lot of my friends have found items in the worlds that you don't usually see unless you are looking for things that will make you remember an area.
If you play the route once a day - not others mind just the one - then you will pick it up extremely quickly and you will be shocked how easy it is. It takes some getting used to I must admit but once you've done you can give yourself a pat on the back in the knowledge that you know the route.
Good Luck to those trying it out!

[jimmyshand]

Most of my SPADs occur due to not being able to trust buggy signals. Whenever you see a red it's often 50/50 whether it's genuine or bugged or if it will suddenly clear to green when you hit the AWS ramp. This means that sometimes I drive a little too fast when approaching a possible red because you just can't be sure if it's a 'proper' signal check. Countless times I've slowed to a crawl from a yellow, approached a red at 10mph ready to stop, then hit the AWS ramp and bing, clears to green and I've slowed to a crawl for nothing and lost valuable minutes. Other times I've drawn up slowly and professionally to a red signal and still been sat there 10 minutes later only to press tab and get cleared through, infuriating!! However, pressing tab isn't always foolproof either. Many times I've tabbed through a seemingly bugged red, been given permission but then derail on the next set of points or get side-swiped by an oncoming express! If the signals worked properly and could be trusted then I know I'd never SPAD because I drive it like the real thing and always from the cab.

[FoggyMorning]

Most of my SPADs occur due to not being able to trust buggy signals. Whenever you see a red it's often 50/50 whether it's genuine or bugged or if it will suddenly clear to green when you hit the AWS ramp. This means that sometimes I drive a little too fast when approaching a possible red because you just can't be sure if it's a 'proper' signal check. Countless times I've slowed to a crawl from a yellow, approached a red at 10mph ready to stop, then hit the AWS ramp and bing, clears to green and I've slowed to a crawl for nothing and lost valuable minutes.

That is not a bug, many signals are designed to only clear on approach in order that drivers know to curtail their speed

[DescendingSadly]

Only had one SPAD in railworks thus far. Leaving Paddington at night and cross read a signal.
Always use the F3 display to route learn then when I'm familiar after a few trips I turn it off and drive properly. With units with good braking like the 150 you can't go wrong.

[Kariban]

APC signals work on speed, not AWS ramps ( technically time between two track circuits iirc ) - unless it's a semaphore. You should never arrive at a red without seeing a yellow/distant at some point other than when you start off unless there's some emergency; if you're in AB station limits then you can arrive at successive reds ( which indeed might clear as you turn up, that's also approach control ) but you'll have passed a distant at yellow somewhere beforehand, unless that's where you set off from.

50/50 :rolleyes:. Maybe two or three per entire scenario are stuck. I've a couple of rules of thumb about avoiding those:

• Try not to start trains in front of the player train, on it's route.
• If you can't help it, run another train through that block before the player gets there ( although that's also got to start somewhere! ) - not terribly effective, but sometimes works.
• Pretty much the same rules for terminating in a portal, often those end up with the signal beforehand stuck for me... so I tend to just let trains run to the end of the route portals.

[FoggyMorning]

APC signals work on speed, not AWS ramps ( technically time between two track circuits iirc ) - unless it's a semaphore.

In real life, yes. The RW implementation seems to be based on the AWS ramps though. I'd still say it was an intentional feature designed to curb speed, rather than a bug though