Update announcement

[transadelaide]

As for the new routemap displays, which appear to be tied into the joypad, I dont think there's any substitute for route knowledge!

1S81

Not everybody can afford to play computer games that much or has a boredom threshold high enough to learn routes properly (a task which is paid for by the company in real life) so substitutes for route knowledge are a necessary evil.

The use of very generic scenery in many areas doesn't help when it deprives the user of useful landmarks to tell where they are.

[1S811985]

Not everybody can afford to play computer games that much or has a boredom threshold high enough to learn routes properly (a task which is paid for by the company in real life) so substitutes for route knowledge are a necessary evil.

The use of very generic scenery in many areas doesn't help when it deprives the user of useful landmarks to tell where they are.

Horses for courses I suppose. Personally I find learning the road and driving it without any of the aids to be a thoroughly rewarding experience and one that is well worth the few hours or so, no more, of committed attention that is required. Which I guess puts me firmly on the "its a simulator" side of the spectrum.

I recall James Woodcock's interview with Paul Jackson from back when RW2 was launched in which much was made about accessability and ease of use being the key to success for RSC, so I can appreciatte the thinking behind developments like the F4 HUD, joypads and big, pointy "go here and do this" arrows.

For what it's worth I think we're now getting to the nub of the issue, and this thread illustrates it quite well to some degree. A highly realistic simulator is always going to be a niche product with a limited market. RSC wants to widen the appeal of its product, for perfectly valid commercial reasons, but to do so it has to simplify things, so that people with no "baggage", in terms of a pre-existing knowledge about or interest in railways, can literaly just jump in the cab and get underway from the moment they load up the game for the first time. Not an easy circle to square, and I think RSC have done a good job in their attempts to do so up to now. Frankly though, I'd be surprised if Railworks were ever going to realistically be able to attract and retain that much interest from anyone who hasn't already been bitten, to some extent, by the railway bug. And, ultimately I think that the "its a simulator" camp will be the last men standing, so to speak.

I agree BTW that many routes, especially the more modern ones, suffer from a lack of lineside landmarks of the sort that can aid easy identification of whereabouts. I think more could be done with the bundled scenario's here, and would cite the Ohio Steel route as an exempler of good practice for including a "welcome to the route" type of scenario that features regular pop-ups explaining where you are and whats to be seen along the way.

1S81

[Darpor]

I think more could be done with the bundled scenario's here, and would cite the Ohio Steel route as an exempler of good practice for including a "welcome to the route" type of scenario that features regular pop-ups explaining where you are and whats to be seen along the way.

Just take a look at scenarios 1,2 and 3 on Settle to Carlisle.

[AndyUK]

....A highly realistic simulator is always going to be a niche product with a limited market. RSC wants to widen the appeal of its product, for perfectly valid commercial reasons, but to do so it has to simplify things, so that people with no "baggage", in terms of a pre-existing knowledge about or interest in railways, can literaly just jump in the cab and get underway from the moment they load up the game for the first time. Not an easy circle to square, and I think RSC have done a good job in their attempts to do so up to now....

Making things simple needn't mean doing away with the realistic elements that appeal to the 'simulator' market. As you say RSC have managed to keep both camps reasonably happy up to now and perhaps the key to maintaining that situation is to make use of the 'simple' and 'expert' modes for more than just controls as has been the case so far.

...And, ultimately I think that the "its a simulator" camp will be the last men standing, so to speak.

Quite possibly but I'd have thought that the 'game' camp outnumber the 'simulator' camp even if their interest is shorter lived and that would mean they are a bigger source of income and need to be kept just as interested as the purists, possibly more so.

Andy L

[1S811985]

Just take a look at scenarios 1,2 and 3 on Settle to Carlisle.

Hope to be able to do so very soon but right now I'm not going to risk taking home a broken pay-packet...

Actually I quite enjoy putting together my own route-learning scenario's for any routes I pick up but then I've got lots of time on my hands and a high boredom threshold!

1S81

[1S811985]

Making things simple needn't mean doing away with the realistic elements that appeal to the 'simulator' market. As you say RSC have managed to keep both camps reasonably happy up to now and perhaps the key to maintaining that situation is to make use of the 'simple' and 'expert' modes for more than just controls as has been the case so far.

Indeed, and I'd certainly hope that this is the route RSC are going to continue going down. You can't keep all the people happy all the time but so long as everyone gets a bone thrown in their direction on a regular enough basis then you can come pretty close.

I'd have thought that the 'game' camp outnumber the 'simulator' camp even if their interest is shorter lived and that would mean they are a bigger source of income and need to be kept just as interested as the purists, possibly more so.

Vastly outnumber I'd say. The key here, I suspect, is repeat business and I was suggesting that it's the "simmers" who'll keep coming back to fill the till in the long run but yes, if there's a steady stream of "gamers" keeping the cashflow going with one-off purchases then so much the better for those of us who are in for the long haul.

It bears repeating I think that RSC have made a damn good fist of things so far and are perhaps deserving of more praise than some can be moved to provide. For example, I've just taken a 76 with a long rake of unfitted 21tonners from Wath to Motram through a pre-dawn, winters rainstorm and can only say WOW! I'd be astonished if we were to see any changes made that detracted, in any meaningful or tangible way, from the "simulator" experience that we have provided for us by TS2012 at the moment.

1S81

[SaMa1]

There can be features that benefit both gaming and simulator sides, example is possibility of having more scripting involved in scenarios. As long as the amount of events in scenarios isn't taken over the edge(zombies on track) they can enhance the immersion of driving train in complex living world and have appeal to regular gamers as well. (I would love audible scenario related radio calls done via scripting)

[Traveller54]

(I would love audible scenario related radio calls done via scripting)

On that theme I would like to see a 'proximity' setting in scenarios to enable range detection of a consist (AI or player) which would launch another. That would eliminate all the fiddling of timeings (and help if you are running late too)!

[jimmyshand]

Some interesting comments here guys and some really thought provoking discussion. To be honest the debate fails to get very far in my mind, I have a hard time imagining any gamer buying Railworks unless they either currently have or at least have had at some point, an active interest in railways.
No matter how simple you make it, no matter how many control options you provide, no matter how well you market, if the end-user doesn't like trains then they aren't going to buy it! A train simulator is exactly what the title says, you can't make it mass-appeal and you can't use it for any other purpose except maybe route building, but if you did buy it to route build then you'd have to be interested in railways to want to build a route to run trains on!

The world of trains is a funny one. Viewed by many of the population as the number one, bar none, geekiest, nerdiest, most cringeworthy hobby of all time yet amazingly, there are a staggering number of people out there, particularly in the UK where railways are everwhere, who are interested. Although understandably many of them keep their dark secret locked deep underground and firmly in the closet! or on the internet hidden behind anonymous usernames!

Bearing all that in mind, I can only see one conclusion. Proper "simmers" and rail enthusiast types are the only viable customerbase for the long term and satisfying those people is where the focus and attention should be made (in my opinion). Attempts to broaden appeal will almost certainly fall foul of barrier numero uno, you have to be interested in trains to buy it.
The good news is that proper rail simmers/enthusiasts are in abundence despite the aforementioned shame of it! Although a niche, it is also an incredibly popular interest all around the globe and so I am totally confident that RSC and other devs have no worries about running out of customers. By their very natures, simmers and rail enthusiasts will always crave better and better products and more and more realism. They will also be willing to pay for it. The future is bright

[gptech]

Bearing all that in mind, I can only see one conclusion. Proper "simmers" and rail enthusiast types are the only viable customerbase for the long term and satisfying those people is where the focus and attention should be made (in my opinion). Attempts to broaden appeal will almost certainly fall foul of barrier numero uno, you have to be interested in trains to buy it.

How much interest do you need?...
imagine little Johnny who like all 8 year olds wants to be an engine driver when he grows up (we're genetically programmed like that) and like all 8 year olds loves machines. he might not have a particular passion for trains but the game could appeal to him. He natters at Mum and Dad for the game and because it features nice and easy '8 year old handleable' controls and systems alongside the more advanced 'proper' ones for ardent railfans they get him it. Fast forward 10 years and little Johnny is heading up RSC after Paul Jacksons retirement with a squillion quid in the bank because little Johnny came along with big ideas, and an even bigger passion for trains.

Far fetched?....certainly, but lets not start thinking of playing train games as an exclusive club, the more users the merrier and anything that can be done to increase that number whilst retaining the 'train geek' stuff has to be applauded and welcomed. Bear in mind that many of what we call 'advanced' features can really be called just the minutiae of railway operations.

[hertsbob]

Hi

I am generally bemused by all the excitement and debate about the gamepad thingy.

My opinion about the future of the sim (and I appreciate that I inhabit a strange no-mans land as far as my professional/amateur status is concerned, and you can all feel free to disregard my opinion on that basis) is that Paul Jackson does actually know what he's doing. It might not be obvious, it may not be happening quickly enough, and it may be something that is easy to deride sometimes, but the man does have a vision for the sim and he is working towards achieving it as best he can.

Jimmy - Personal perception is a strange thing. For me, I can't understand why anyone would devote their spare time to just driving trains around! So given that as a backdrop it's not too hard to see why it's difficult for people on enthusist sites to comprehend that other folks may be casual 'gamer' users of the sim. In fact, there was a comment from one such chap on the Steam Forum earlier on today.

gptech - Could you have a quick check of your maths? I think little Johnny might be a little bit older than 18 when he takes over the company.

Cheers

Bob

[Easilyconfused]

The whole debate is similar to ones I have heard at model railway shows and had a few times with Pete regarding the same.

In the model railway circles there is a lot of sneering and looking down on the youngsters who want to run Voyagers etc. on the club layouts. Seen it at my own club. Yes, our layout is modelled in the 60s but getting the younger ones interested is the future and most of them don't remember BR Blue Diesels let alone dirty black steam engines. The club membership of lots of clubs is rapidly ageing and in 10 - 15 years most will be positively elderly. Dean at our club in in his 30s and only runs blue diesels and newer - not the slightest bit interested in old steam stuff and gets good natured grief for it.

If people want to drive with mouse and keyboard then that is fine but where is the issue in allowing gamepads to be used as well ? I have a game pad for use with Toca Race Driver 2 and Demolition Simulator. When Railworks supports it I will try it out and see what I think. Until then it is all speculation and lots of people getting in a tizzy over what might turn out to be a positive addition.

[TheTazman]

Yep this is an option to use a gamepad not a mandatory requirement having to switch to using one.

I would however hope that the new menu works for both game pad and keyboard use. I am stuck in my ways, i am happy with my keyboard and i would not switch away from using it.

Edit: Nice use of the word "Tizzy". I will make a note of that, I want to use it more in coversation... "General Melchit - Black Adder".

The whole debate is similar to ones I have heard at model railway shows and had a few times with Pete regarding the same.

In the model railway circles there is a lot of sneering and looking down on the youngsters who want to run Voyagers etc. on the club layouts. Seen it at my own club. Yes, our layout is modelled in the 60s but getting the younger ones interested is the future and most of them don't remember BR Blue Diesels let alone dirty black steam engines. The club membership of lots of clubs is rapidly ageing and in 10 - 15 years most will be positively elderly. Dean at our club in in his 30s and only runs blue diesels and newer - not the slightest bit interested in old steam stuff and gets good natured grief for it.

If people want to drive with mouse and keyboard then that is fine but where is the issue in allowing gamepads to be used as well ? I have a game pad for use with Toca Race Driver 2 and Demolition Simulator. When Railworks supports it I will try it out and see what I think. Until then it is all speculation and lots of people getting in a tizzy over what might turn out to be a positive addition.

[Traveller54]

Yep this is an option to use a gamepad not a mandatory requirement having to switch to using one.

True - but one thing that hasn't seemed to have been established is if the new 'features' that using a gamepad brings to the sim (as previously documented in this thread) will be available using the current keyboard?
PJ (RSC ceo) did make a brief reference to this in a reply on Facebook on Sunday but so far has not (as far as I have seen) reported back if this will be the case.

[gptech]

gptech - Could you have a quick check of your maths? I think little Johnny might be a little bit older than 18 when he takes over the company.

Cheers

Bob

Bob, if you're good enough, you're old enough........