Atomic Systems

I believe there are a few incorrectly placed signals, and missing signals according to the signal plan as given on Mully's site from that era.....

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I think there's been enough explanation, I said about repeaters on the bridge and it got repeated on here

Before I get my Taxi...

Semaphores (or at least these) have plates

http://www.flickr.com/photos/35663521@N04/5466237231/

I don't know if they all have them though, I would have thought so as you would generally call up the 'box if you were held and use the plate code as a reference so he/she knows what you are talking about.

tubemad wrote:I think there's been enough explanation, I said about repeaters on the bridge and it got repeated on here

Before I get my Taxi...

Semaphores (or at least these) have plates

http://www.flickr.com/photos/35663521@N04/5466237231/

I don't know if they all have them though, I would have thought so as you would generally call up the 'box if you were held and use the plate code as a reference so he/she knows what you are talking about.

Some members seem a little confused about colour light distant and colour light repeater signals. And I think you got a little confused because I did mention semaphore distant signals. There will be no need to stop at these. Even today's colour light distant signals that i have seen don't have a telephone.

Thanks

This thread seems to have mushroomed into quite something else! My particular issue is with the 185 minute scenario. I'm crossing the bridge Northbound at 50mph. There are two very closely spaced signals at the end of the bridge. I do not remember if I was given a yellow caution but the one after that was red, without enough braking distance.

coolhand101 wrote:

tubemad wrote:I think there's been enough explanation, I said about repeaters on the bridge and it got repeated on here

Before I get my Taxi...

Semaphores (or at least these) have plates

http://www.flickr.com/photos/35663521@N04/5466237231/

I don't know if they all have them though, I would have thought so as you would generally call up the 'box if you were held and use the plate code as a reference so he/she knows what you are talking about.

Some members seem a little confused about colour light distant and colour light repeater signals. And I think you got a little confused because I did mention semaphore distant signals. There will be no need to stop at these. Even today's colour light distant signals that i have seen don't have a telephone.

Thanks

I know I just could resist a repeater just, it was terrible I know!

I see what you mean now, and yes repeaters of any form wouldn't need telephones (STP) just main signals. The only semaphore I know of that doesn't have a distance semaphore is on the approach to Yeovil Pen Mill from Castle Cary, as it's straight to a Home signal, however there is a signal miles before that, however from colour signal to semaphore, I don't know if it can show yellow, being a PSB signal crossing into a mechanical box signal.

Anyway, as I haven't got SECM yet, is there a signal of any form on the Forth Bridge?

Hopefully this won't muddy the water any further but the Rule Book Module S1 (http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Rule_Book/Ru ... ss%201.pdf) doesn't mention repeaters, other than in the banner repeater context, and in section 1 defines a Distant Signal:

Distant signals
A distant signal is a signal which cannot show a stop aspect or
indication.
Some colour light distant signals are identified by the letters R or
RR after the signal identity on the signal identification plate.

Where does the term 'repeater', for what to all intents and purposes seems to be a colour light distant by the rule book's definition, come from?

Andy L

tubemad wrote:......Anyway, as I haven't got SECM yet, is there a signal of any form on the Forth Bridge?

Yes, several. They seem to be in correct places as indicated on the Network Rail diagram downloadable from here: http://mullys.webs.com/scottisheastcoastmainline.htm but there's some doubt as to whether they're all of the correct type - hence this thread!

Andy L

AndyUK wrote:Hopefully this won't muddy the water any further but the Rule Book Module S1 (http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Rule_Book/Ru ... ss%201.pdf) doesn't mention repeaters, other than in the banner repeater context, and in section 1 defines a Distant Signal:

Distant signals
A distant signal is a signal which cannot show a stop aspect or
indication.
Some colour light distant signals are identified by the letters R or
RR after the signal identity on the signal identification plate.

Where does the term 'repeater', for what to all intents and purposes seems to be a colour light distant by the rule book's definition, come from?

Andy L

I do believe something has changed in the rule book regarding this. When a distant signal is off/green, all the stop signals controlled by the signal box are off. With a repeater signal, it will only show if the next signal is red or a proceed aspect just like a banner repeater except it's colour lights. Network rail like to change things to justify whatever reason. It quoted some distant signals have the prefix R which use to be a prefix for a repeater, the other prefix for a distant is a white triangle. Why would a distant signal have two prefix identities? Looks like NR have merged them somewhat.

Thanks

Just had a quick look at the sig dia for the bridge and it looks to be 4 two aspect distant signals set for bi-directional. Simple really.

Gordon

gopher wrote:Just had a quick look at the sig dia for the bridge and it looks to be 4 two aspect distant signals set for bi-directional. Simple really.

Gordon

It appears to be simple enough. I have no idea of the layout for signals around the forth bridge but it does not appear to be absolute block working which is where distant signals are used. Has anyone read in the above book the definition of a distant signal other than it cannot show a red light. I'm pretty certain there is still absolute block working somewhere on the BR network today, where the distant signal definition still applies.

Thanks

Inthernet wrote:This thread seems to have mushroomed into quite something else! My particular issue is with the 185 minute scenario. I'm crossing the bridge Northbound at 50mph. There are two very closely spaced signals at the end of the bridge. I do not remember if I was given a yellow caution but the one after that was red, without enough braking distance.

Well if you don't remember what the previous signal was showing then the SPAD was your fault if the signal displayed a yellow aspect. If it was green, then it wasn't your fault. At the top of this thread, you stated you was doing 60mph not 50mph. If you was speeding, then again your fault. However with a lot of routes i have seen, RW,MSTS, you will get incorrect braking distances between signals so chances are, it wasn't your fault. Doing a three hour scenario then passing a red light is highly annoying, however with railworks, you can pass a red light without ending the scenario. On one route, I passed a red light at quite some speed after thinking i passed two yellows and stopped about 300 yards from a freight train. I reversed back to the signal i passed at danger, waited for the freight train to clear the mainline and my signal changed to one yellow, where i was able to complete the scenario. I can't remember if the scenario report mention the passing of the red light, but at least i was able to finish it. If it is a route problem, then theres nothing really you can do about it unless the author brings out a patch. However this thread can serve it's purpose by letting other members know about this scenario and be extra vigilant!

Thanks

Edit
I've just looked at the PDF showing the forth bridge signal layout. They are repeater signals, as that signalbox controls a lot of signals, there is no way that a green on the so called distant means all signals under that box are showing a proceed aspect. You could argue that heading towards dundee, the signal after the repeater is the last signal controlled by that box so as i said before, a distant signal in the off/green means all signals control by that signalbox are showing a proceed aspect. But coming the other way, there are a quite a few signals after the repeater, so the so called distant showing a green does not mean all signals controlled by that box are not showing a proceed aspect. I take a wild guess here, but it looks like network rail have renamed colour light repeaters on track circuit block lines as a distant signal which doesn't mean that all signals controlled by that signalbox are showing a proceed aspect if the distant is showing a green light. When and why they change this terminology, i have no idea!

Personally, I'd see if there was an avoiding line to use.....one with signals I understand...

gptech wrote:Personally, I'd see if there was an avoiding line to use.....one with signals I understand...

NR are bringing out signals now that allow you to pass a signal at danger on the mainline without talking to the signalman. There are two white lights with the main signal which look like a calling on signal but it will flash on and off. This tells the driver to pass the signal at danger and be prepared to stop short of any obstruction and obey the next signal. All without verbal confirmation!

Thanks

Yes, the simple answer is that there are a fair few red/green 2 aspects which should be green/yellow 2 aspect.

The signals on the Forth bridge itself should all be green/yellow. Only the signals at the far ends should be able to display a red aspect. There are a few other places where the wrong type of signal has been used, such as 3 aspect instead of distant; check the signal diagram, and you'll see they are 3 aspect with a blanking plate over the position where the red lense should be.

I've started to try to fix the problems on my copy using the distant in the default signal makeover pack. Assuming it doesn't all break the AI!

Inthernet wrote:This thread seems to have mushroomed into quite something else! My particular issue is with the 185 minute scenario. I'm crossing the bridge Northbound at 50mph. There are two very closely spaced signals at the end of the bridge. I do not remember if I was given a yellow caution but the one after that was red, without enough braking distance.

Right! I can confirm this on the 185 min scenario. I was following the Northern Lights train north over the bridge, all lights are green so I stay at line speed (50 over the bridge in my 166). Coming to north end of the bridge I see a two aspect signal showing green. On passing this and then clearing the brick bridge portal, I then see the three aspect signal at the north bridge end showing a red aspect. At 50 it's too late to prevent the SPAD, and I've not seen a yellow signal for a few signals before this. Looking at the view 9, I can just see the Northern Lights northbound train just clearing the block north of the bridge.

So there IS something amiss with the signalling on the bridge which didn't show a yellow before I could see the red.

I surmise that this problem is intermittent, depending on your speed to the bridge. Some are reaching the bridge after the Northern Lights northbound has cleared the whole bridge section and therefore they won't get the red at the north bridge end as the express will have already cleared the next section... They'll probably get a yellow there. Those of us who're that little faster out of Edinburgh will arrive on the northern section of bridge whilst the express is still in the following section and see all greens followed by a red which we can't stop at.

Fixes are:

1. Check the signals over the bridge and fix 'em... (Preferred option)
2. Drive more slowly on the section leading to the bridge and hope that the express has cleared the after-bridge section before you get to the north end of the bridge... (OK)
3. Assume you'll have a red signal as you exit the north end of the bridge (regardless of the greens you get all the way over) and slow down accordingly to avoid a SPAD. (Annoying if you forget or the express has cleared and you approach a yellow (or even green) with the brakes on doing 20 or so.

That's my tuppence-worth. Discuss.