Top Speed of King Class?

[rhysicus1989]

I have problems with the Kings water injectors. The I, O, K and L keys do not work in the Cornish Riviera scenario sometimes. Do anyone have the same problems?

And general I think the RW steam engines use much to less water. I.e. the King is a water wonder.

Windberg, I have exactly the same problem, in fact I posted in the general discussion page not long ago but nobody has answered that thread. Its happening to lots of my steam locos, but some do seem to work and some just dont and I have no idea why or what I am doing wrong. Has the keys for Injectors and water feeds been changed around?

[Kernow2]

Devon is 60mph everywhere past Exeter even now, that might have something to do with it...

That's funny I could have sworn I saw an 80mph sign outside Starcross.. Past Newton Abbot it all becomes a little more stately.

I read the the over evening that 6018 King Henry VI ran with a trailing load of 500 tons start to stop from Reading to Paddington 36 miles in 36 minutes quite effortlessly. Taken from Adrian Vaughans 'Signalmans' Twilight. An average of 60mph but that's start to stop remember so it will obviously have been nipping along quite nicely

The RSC one does seem to be a bit of a' Camel' as the crews would call a poor steamer/rough rider!

Regards,
Kernow2

[Kariban]

Ah, there is a bit on the seawall, yes. Ok, so "nearly all 60mph"

[Springer6]

Hello ,

I recently purchased the RSC King class ( although there is nothing wrong with the freeware version from Kingtrains). However I can't get it to go above 56 mph or so ? I have read the manual and note the bit about using the ejectors to take the brakes off, but even with a full 25 inches of vacuum, I can't get this loco to go faster than 59mph absolute max. on the dead level with a rake of 9 Mk1s. It's even slower with the supplied Centenary GWR set !
I have a lot of experience with other steamers and find with this loco that is v. hard to get steam usage rate below steam generation rate by using the cut off. Something that is essential in other locos for sustained speed.

Also there is no passenger view with the GWR set ( something I have noticed with the new Blood and Custard coaches that come with the Woodhead route. also).

Anyone know why there are these problems?

[stuart666]

Last first, there isnt a passenger view simply because the BRmk1 doesnt do the centenary set justice. So if there wasnt enough time to do another internal model as I assume that was the case, im glad they didnt reference it.

The locomotive will go a lot faster than 59mph. Top speed I can get out of it is 83mph going downhill from Badminton, which whilst a bit on the low side, also partly reflects the fact that the GWR version was not as powerful as the postwar example. I wouldnt expect to get 108 out of this as you would a double Chimney King. Kevs King Edward 1st ive got up to about 95-97mph with about 7 carriages, which seems closer, if perhaps a tiny bit too fast. Dont know, hard to come to conclusions as there doesnt appear to be test results for anything but the postwar version.

To get the top speed. you have to shovel like blazes. Make sure that firebox is full up. Keep the water high. Balance the steam pressure using the reverser so you area always in the positive column (and nearly blowing off) and lastly, turn off the auto fireman. Its no good for anything, not even making the tea.

Its a pretty good model all round, but I would be the first to admit there are some areas that could do with tweaking on it. Im idly considering doing a freeware tweak pack to make adjustments. I might ask about that. Certainly I would agree the Centenary set is a bit on the draggy side.

[almark]

Up to a few years ago it was max speed 60 WEST of Plymouth,most of the line (50-70%) between Plymouth and Exeter is 60+ plus,probably the lowest is round Dainton where its 55 in places.

[Springer6]

stuart666,

OK , thanks for the info on the passenger view. At least we know why now. I assume this applies to the Woodhead coaches as well, even though they seem to be based on mk1s.

My problems ( and those of others) seem to be due to the fact that I am using the auto fireman. The auto fireman has always been more than adequate for other RW locos, but it seems the chap assigned to the King is no good!

I always try to balance the steam usage to be less than the steam generation rate with the cut off ( except for very short periods when on a large grade such as Beattock). This of course allows you to maintain boiler pressure near max. However on the King, unlike other locos, this seems impossible to achieve with the auto fireman.

I havn't tried running without the auto fireman as I assumed it would make the workload (stoking, driving, watching for signals etc) too great to enjoy the ride, but perhaps I will give it a go.

I have no problems at all with kng trains freeware version as this will give a good turn of speed.

To be honest, I bought the RSC King with the hope of using it's excellent cab in the freeware King and also in the Hall. I have seen a download somewhere which allowed you to do this.

It would be great if someone with the skills to do it could produce a tweak to sort the King and it's coaches out. Because as you say it's a very nice model.

[stuart666]

stuart666,

OK , thanks for the info on the passenger view. At least we know why now. I assume this applies to the Woodhead coaches as well, even though they seem to be based on mk1s.

My problems ( and those of others) seem to be due to the fact that I am using the auto fireman. The auto fireman has always been more than adequate for other RW locos, but it seems the chap assigned to the King is no good!

I always try to balance the steam usage to be less than the steam generation rate with the cut off ( except for very short periods when on a large grade such as Beattock). This of course allows you to maintain boiler pressure near max. However on the King, unlike other locos, this seems impossible to achieve with the auto fireman.

I havn't tried running without the auto fireman as I assumed it would make the workload (stoking, driving, watching for signals etc) too great to enjoy the ride, but perhaps I will give it a go.

I have no problems at all with kng trains freeware version as this will give a good turn of speed.

To be honest, I bought the RSC King with the hope of using it's excellent cab in the freeware King and also in the Hall. I have seen a download somewhere which allowed you to do this.

It would be great if someone with the skills to do it could produce a tweak to sort the King and it's coaches out. Because as you say it's a very nice model.

Well thats the reason why I assume it wasnt used. It would be interesting to see if it could be modded to use the internal cam of Gordons GWR carriages, which would be a little closer anyway.

Yeah, shoot the fireman. He is an inferior specimen from one of the 'other' grouped companies. To simulate the heroic work of an average GWR fireman, you have to do it yourself.

Re cab, its very good (in fact one of the best so far in Railworks, barring the 56xx) the problem the king cab has is that it has no ATC setup. In actual fact, the Hall doesnt either, its setup to AWS, but at least its a little closer than what the King has, ie, nothing at all. The king would have had a warning system fitted from new, so its a pity its not got one. I do recall there was a mod by someone to use the Halls cab in Kevs King (or at least King Edward 1st) and it may be worth looking in the directory to see if its still present.

I actually fixed the Centenaries myself, its a very easy fix if you have RW tools, all you have to do is set the rolling friction and drag to that of the BRmk1s and they will perform identically. King would require a bit more work to get accurate performance. Setting maximum speed is easy enough, the problem is sorting out the boiler which needs a bit of tweaking. But I will say I dont think its anywhere near as inaccurate as people think. Most people base their expectations on what King Edward 1st could do, and he has been much reworked in his time.

[choccy]

I don't understand why the RSC King's auto fireman is being maligned. I've always used auto fireman as I prefer to look at what's around me. I've just taken the RSC King from Reading to Paddington at a consistent 78.9 mph hauling 12 Mark1's. Regulator 100% Reverser 36% Running 23% and boiler pressure a stable max of 249.8. An admirable performance for a GWR King which lags considerably behind the kind of performances achieved on the East and West Coasts.

Have you enabled the dampers with the 'M' key? They are 'off' by default on my installation and a considerable performance boost will be achieved by enabling them. Actually I find the RSC KIng great fun to drive as it's performance seems virtually spot on to me, considering the above performance is what I usually achieve with the King on level terrain and 12 Mark 1's

Mark

[rivimey]

I haven't got the RSC King model but am interested, so it seemed helpful to post some figures from my GWR Stars Castles and Kings books of "random" runs in real engines from the past:

Code: Select all

Castle 4079 on the down Cornish Riviera (Paddington to Plymouth), 1924: Load 14 / 12/ 10/7, max 530t:
    Max speed 80.5mph at Lavington, "high speed" between 65-76mph (c.f. next run fewer figures in the 40s - more like 60s). Total time 244m0s, 225.7miles = avg 55.5mph

Castle 4074, 1925: Load 14 / 12 / 10 / 8, max 530t:
    Max speed 77.5mph at Lavington, "high speed" around 68-77mph. Lots of figures in the 40s though (e.g. around Ealing, Savernake, Wellington). Total time 231m58s, 225.7miles = 61.6mph

King 6011 King James I, 1927: Load 14/12/10/7 max 525t:
    Max speed 83.5mph, "high speed" 70-79mph, Few figures lower than 50mph. Boiler normally btw 240 and 245psi, once 230psi.  Total time 245m35s, 225.7miles = 55.1mph (with lots of p.w. slack)

King 6000 King George V, 1929: Load 14 / 11 / 11 / 11, max 510t:
    Max speed 82mph, high speed 70-75mph, lots of slack but few speeds below 50mph.   Total time 232.5m, 225.7miles = 61.8mph (with lots of p.w. slack)

King 6013 King Henry VIII, 1930: Load 16/13/13 (unrecorded beyond Exeter), max 580t:
    Max speed 83.5 (Lavington), "high speed" 70-75, Tiverton 79mph. 4 slacks.  Total time 172.5m, 173.7miles = 60.4mph (with some p.w. slack)

So, a King could reach over 83mph, the high 70s were relatively common, and 60 was "slow" - with a heavy train. The major benefit of the Kings was tractive effort - power - not speed, which enabled them to pull away quickly, pull heavy loads, and climb hills without assistance.

Compare the numbers earlier: a King with 6'6" drivers and 40K lbs TE in comparison to the A4 and Princess "speed demons" with slightly lower TE but 4.5% larger diameter wheels.

HTH,
Ruth

[rivimey]

I carried on that line of throught.
Comparing a 6'6" to a 6'9" driver, and assuming that the limiting factor to speed is that rpm is limited: Say for example max rpm is 270:

6'6" drivers take 258.6 revs of 245in circumference wheels/mile
6'9" drivers take 249.4 revs of 254in circumference wheels/mile

i.e. 60mph = 258 or 249 rev/min

So if rev cap is 270rpm

6'6" drivers = (270 * 245) = 66150inch/min = 5512.5ft/min = 62.6mph

6'9" drivers = (270 * 254) = 66150inch/min = 5715ft/min = 64.9mph

So 3" on the driver gains 2.3mph on speed.

Not conclusive, I admit!

Ruth

[hertsbob]

Yeah, shoot the fireman. He is an inferior specimen from one of the 'other' grouped companies. To simulate the heroic work of an average GWR fireman, you have to do it yourself.

[Kariban]

Well the limiting factor is steam flow, I'd imagine - not really sure but there's only so far you can wind back the cutoff and I presume there's a limit to how fast steam expands too.

Average of 60 with 580tons ( which is nearly two HST rakes without the powercars ) is not a bad effort at all!

[rivimey]

Kariban

My rev cap was just an approximation. I was "wondering out loud" how much effect larger wheels have. Yes, steam movement speed is limited, especially if there are constrictions (bends, etc). I would expect it to be one of the major factors limiting top speed of steam locomotives, along with air resistance.

I approximated it in postulating a maximum rpm on the assumption that the TE of a King was high, so it had power, but perhaps lacked something in gearing/mechanical advantage.

Regards
Ruth

[Kariban]

It is indirectly RPM - swept volume of the cylinder, but I suppose there's also some limit of reciprocating mass being flung around somewhere, which is directly RPM related. The mechanical advantage though would imply the piston strokes being the same - if the bigger wheels have longer stroke, then they've got the same advantage anyway. I'm pretty sure the Princess ( at least the first one ) actually has a King front end but the stroke is longer, which explains the near identical TE at least... and the need for a bigger boiler.

Now I need to go see if anyone compared a Saint & a Hall doing the same things.