Ohio Steel 2

[transadelaide]

With the way that 3DTrains upsell (best description for this practice so far!) there is not any other alternative that would be acceptable and allow the benefits of Steam distribution to be retained. Any other "so-called solution" would disadvantage more people than the current minor inconvenience of dropping them in again. It's something that in my opinion is a 50-50 responsibility split between 3DT and RS.com/Steam, but with the full burden of finding some other solution to be 3DT's issue - if they want to remain a viable payware producer for TS2012 they'll need to ditch their outdated MSTS sales/distribution model.

Reinstalling the high-res versions after a Steam install or cache verification is not that big a deal, it's no worse than running an Armstrong Powerhouse installer again or replacing some branded textures for Oovee products.

It's also not that much of a difference anyway. I forgot to reinstall the high-res Rural Landscapes again after my last cache verification, and the next time I ran one of the All Aboard routes I noticed that the difference in what it brought to the experience for a cab-driver was minimal. On balance I found that it was better to stick with the improved performance of the low-res versions than go with the marginally higher detail and lower performance, so I verified the cache again and I'm leaving them dormant on my hard drive for possible use on some future kryptonite-powered hypercomputer. It's not worth the extra payware purchase in my opinion, and not one that I would recommend to anybody else.

[BobLatimer]

transadelaide, I don't think I quite understand the point you are trying to make, but I think I disagree.

The example that you have used of the Armstrong content is, as I see it, a completely different situation. That is content sold by a "3rd party" developer and modifies RSC content and I wouldn't expect RSC and Steam to make allowances for it in new RSC releases or in the Verify Cache process. Users must expect to have to reinstall it after a Verify Cache.

I'm assuming that RSC and Steam used the 3D Trains material with permission and it appears they did so on the basis that it wouldn't overwrite the high-res versions. On the face of it, it appears that RSC and/or Steam didn't live up to their end of the bargain. We, the users, have to suffer for that, even if it is in a minor way.

Surely the correct solution would have been for Steam to structure the installer in such a way that it didn't overwrite the high-res versions. I don't think it is true that "there is not any other alternative ".

Your opinion of 3D Trains' distribution methods and of their products is hardly relevant in this discussion.

Bob.

[transadelaide]

I'm assuming that RSC and Steam used the 3D Trains material with permission and it appears they did so on the basis that it wouldn't overwrite the high-res versions. On the face of it, it appears that RSC and/or Steam didn't live up to their end of the bargain. We, the users, have to suffer for that, even if it is in a minor way.

I would like to agree with you, but I can't at this point as we've only heard one side of the story so far. It wouldn't be the first time some third party has aired their dirty laundry in a public forum and RS.com has had the dignity to abstain from responding in kind.

Having to reinstall the high-res versions is the work of 30 seconds. I think it is grossly unfair to call that "suffering" in even the most minor way, considering the mayhem it would cause if the 3DTrains packs were not included in any form so users had to go on an asset hunt for a payware product that should have been complete.

If 3DT devised a utility that made it easier to switch between the two versions with a couple of clicks that may improve it, perhaps something they should consider as a way to give their customers more choice and control over their installations.

Surely the correct solution would have been for Steam to structure the installer in such a way that it didn't overwrite the high-res versions. I don't think it is true that "there is not any other alternative ".

There are two problems with Steam doing that. The first is that it doesn't have an installer as such, it downloads the files directly to their destination. The second problem is that if the facility to add a "do not overwrite" policy on a certain sub-folder was added, it negates one of the main advantages of Steam which is the ability to repair an installation without having to root around in the game's folder looking for the right files to delete.

Your opinion of 3D Trains' distribution methods and of their products is hardly relevant in this discussion.

It could hardly be more relevant. The conflict between their distribution method and the use of Steam distribution is the core of this little discussion. I'm simply making the point that it may be better to avoid that payware product until a better distribution method is devised, in the light of the fact I consider the improvement it makes is negligible. You're welcome to disagree though, this isn't like Wikipedia where the choice to click through the anti-SOPA banner was not made open for those who disagreed with the strike.

[3DTrains]

I do hope they have permission to distribute the content like this

Jim, RSC have full permissions to distribute the packs with Rich Garber's All Aboard products.

With the way that 3DTrains upsell (best description for this practice so far!) there is not any other alternative that would be acceptable and allow the benefits of Steam distribution to be retained. Any other "so-called solution" would disadvantage more people than the current minor inconvenience of dropping them in again. It's something that in my opinion is a 50-50 responsibility split between 3DT and RS.com/Steam, but with the full burden of finding some other solution to be 3DT's issue - if they want to remain a viable payware producer for TS2012 they'll need to ditch their outdated MSTS sales/distribution model.

As with my MSTS versions of some of these add-ons, my original concept was to provide all items in their current freeware status as purely freeware items. The payware only came about after I had already finished Rural Landscapes and ScaleRail. Perhaps you can now consider the current state as “upselling”, but I see nothing wrong with this and I don't compel anyone to make these purchases. I do not spam folks with email or messages to buy, and other than a link at the bottom of the freeware download thread, I make no further mention of the payware offering. I also don't force anyone who uses my items in their work to compel the end-user to make a purchase. As I mentioned elsewhere, forum registration is only so that all files and updates are kept in a central location, as well as to minimize offsite cross-linking. The same applies to those wishing to post comments on this forum - you register so that you can participate. Matt does not force or hound anyone to purchase a forum or download subscription. The option is there (for downloads), but not compulsory to enjoy the benefits of this site.

That said, I’m curious as to why you feel the need to continually harp on the fact that you do not see any value in using the higher-res versions of the add-ons. You previously made this clear. That should be it. Move forward.

I’m also curious why you feel I have an “outdated” sales distribution model. Seems to work fine, and other than what’s been written by you here, I’ve had few complaints. I could have tied everything to the user’s machine ID, or used another method of verifying the download or purchase. While this might make it easier on me, it goes against my desire to retain the customer’s right to privacy. Once downloaded, the files should be theirs to install as many times as they wish without me having to get involved. It certainly isn't the slickest method of doing things, but it does work and work well for (nearly) all involved. If you have a better way of doing things, one that's non-intrusive to the user, by all means let me know.

Reinstalling the high-res versions after a Steam install or cache verification is not that big a deal, it's no worse than running an Armstrong Powerhouse installer again or replacing some branded textures for Oovee products.

Yes, not in the grand scheme of things, but that’s not how it’s supposed to work. The plan was to make things easy on the end-user, not make them jump though hoops, regardless of how small those hoops may be perceived by you or I.

It's also not that much of a difference anyway. I forgot to reinstall the high-res Rural Landscapes again after my last cache verification, and the next time I ran one of the All Aboard routes I noticed that the difference in what it brought to the experience for a cab-driver was minimal.

You already mentioned this before, but the fact is that you did notice. Minor in your opinion, but it might be of major annoyance to someone else (it would to me).

On balance I found that it was better to stick with the improved performance of the low-res versions than go with the marginally higher detail and lower performance, so I verified the cache again and I'm leaving them dormant on my hard drive for possible use on some future kryptonite-powered hypercomputer. It's not worth the extra payware purchase in my opinion, and not one that I would recommend to anybody else.

To continue from my previous comment above, it’s obvious that you’re not strictly against payware, else you wouldn’t have purchased any DLC or my own products. However, you appear to have a bug up your butt about how I do things at 3DTrains, and your comments on needing a super-computer to run my add-ons is laughable. I don’t get it.

I would like to agree with you, but I can't at this point as we've only heard one side of the story so far. It wouldn't be the first time some third party has aired their dirty laundry in a public forum and RS.com has had the dignity to abstain from responding in kind.

No, both sides have been mentioned in this thread, and I don’t see anything in my reply to be construed as “dirty laundry.” I only commented on how things are supposed to work. I see nothing undignified about mentioning that. However, there might have been changes to Steam's distribution model that I'm not privy to. If they have changed things, then I will indeed have to find a different way of doing things. I have no problem with this so long as I'm given all the necessary information.

If 3DT devised a utility that made it easier to switch between the two versions with a couple of clicks that may improve it, perhaps something they should consider as a way to give their customers more choice and control over their installations.

I don’t see any difference between devising such a solution to that of using the original installer. The end-user should not have to do this.

Surely the correct solution would have been for Steam to structure the installer in such a way that it didn't overwrite the high-res versions. I don't think it is true that "there is not any other alternative ".

I was told that Steam could do this. Although the distribution methods are different, Just Trains didn’t have a problem doing so, and in the few years I’ve been providing content for Rich Garber’s routes, I haven’t heard of any issues from previous Steam installs.

There are two problems with Steam doing that. The first is that it doesn't have an installer as such, it downloads the files directly to their destination.

I believe a fact check is in order. The file names for the objects and textures in my packs are the same, so flagging the freeware files to not overwrite is an easy one, and something Steam apparently has been able to do in the past. If they didn’t have this capability, it seems logical that the entire sim and all DLC would be downloaded each time someone verifies their cache. Changes to the end-file do not automatically force a new copy to the end-user’s PC – I’ve verified this time and time again over the years with other DLC and default files.

The second problem is that if the facility to add a "do not overwrite" policy on a certain sub-folder was added, it negates one of the main advantages of Steam which is the ability to repair an installation without having to root around in the game's folder looking for the right files to delete.

Not as I see it. At that point then I would recommend a fresh install of my add-ons, and not each time afterward someone verifies cache. Fix when it’s broke, not when it isn’t.

Your opinion of 3D Trains' distribution methods and of their products is hardly relevant in this discussion.

It could hardly be more relevant. The conflict between their distribution method and the use of Steam distribution is the core of this little discussion.

It may have been relevant a page or two back, but it was already addressed that 1) how I was told things would work; and 2) getting things to work until a solution (from either side) can be found and implemented. However, how I choose to run my business should be none of your concern. I've been fairly nice thus far. Let's not make a battle over dealings you know little about. If there are further comments you wish to make regarding how I do things at 3DTrains, remember that I'm just an email away.

Some bad switches

The welded junctions were an unfortunate goof. They have since been fixed, however, and an update has been sent to RSC.

[nigeltouatievans]

...flagging the freeware files to not overwrite is an easy one, and something Steam apparently has been able to do in the past. If they didn’t have this capability, it seems logical that the entire sim and all DLC would be downloaded each time someone verifies their cache.

While I don't know for sure about whether steam can flag files as 'don't overwrite', your logical inference does not follow. As far as I am aware when you do a verify cache Steam has a list of checksums for all files in the sim and DLC, and for each file checks the file on the disk vs the checksum - any that don't match are downloaded again, it doesn't require files being flagged in any way to avoid downloading everything.

[3DTrains]

While I don't know for sure about whether steam can flag files as 'don't overwrite', your logical inference does not follow. As far as I am aware when you do a verify cache Steam has a list of checksums for all files in the sim and DLC, and for each file checks the file on the disk vs the checksum - any that don't match are downloaded again, it doesn't require files being flagged in any way to avoid downloading everything.

My comments were basic only to illustrate a point, and I did make mention of edited files not being downloaded after a cache verification. At any rate, there didn't appear to be a problem in the past, so why all of a sudden now? Either something has changed, or someone forgot to flip a switch. Otherwise, this might have been going on all along without anyone being the wiser. However, after 2-1/2 years I have my doubts on that.

[Kariban]

So this route doesn't use the AAR version of the track? ( it's in Allaboard\Trackplans\Railnetwork )... that is a bit of a goof - either that or RSC got things very confused when they sent it to Steam. If someone does have the route and RWTools, mind looking in the tracks.bin & checking which track it's referring to?

Not quite the right place to ask, but how compatible is the high-res track with the AAR version, Marc?

[USRailFan]

AFAIK it does use the AAR, but these are, I think, just copies of the 3DTrains' stuff placed in the Allaboard Assets folder for convenience?

[Kariban]

All named differently, which is why I was asking about compatibility ( obviously the internal paths are different ).

[3DTrains]

The AA version are high-res and separate from ScaleRail, and I made these for Richard long ago. The goof for the tracks was in a missing folder which caused some of the points to weld. However, Rich and I fixed this earlier in the week, and the files were sent to RSC for inclusion in a future update.

It's the freeware versions of ScaleRoad and Rural Landscapes that is the topic mentioned above.

[rabid]

Does anyone know what the full price and the "upgrade" price (if you have v1) are on Steam?
I paid €13.99 yet I had previously bought v1 in the celebrated 75% off Xmas sale (2010).
So did I get the upgrade discount?

Cheers
David

[Kariban]

Full price is £20, upgrade deal is 40% off.

[rabid]

Makes sense, thanks for that.
Bloody good route actually, very detailed with plenty of atmosphere.
Would have liked to have seen working crossings though.

[Kariban]

Just downloaded it, weren't any updates to the 3DTrains folder at all ( or the AAR trackplan folder come to that ). I guess your highres track is safe again.

[3DTrains]

As I mentioned above, the AA track and ScaleRail are separate items. Regardless of which version you order (Steam or directly from Rich), you'll always have high-resolution AA track textures.