Public Thank you

[jimmyshand]

In my view updating stock to TS2012 standard (headlight, rain) should really be done for free as it shows goodwill between customer and developer and keeps people engaged. TS2012 is essentially still just the same game but with some bells and whistles added. If we'd had a completely new game with a completely new engine and program etc then fair enough developers will have to charge because they will have had to create new locos from scratch. I think it's fair to charge if you're getting a new or overhauled loco however. New model, sounds, cab etc is fair game to charge. RW is a difficult beast to create for, if it was easy and quick to make new locos then we'd have seen a lot more made by a lot more people and in a much quicker timeframe. In MSTSland there were community developers churning out new locos, cabs and sounds by the barrel load, it just isn't like that with RW, it's clearly a far more complex and technical beast where even the pros take many months of full time work to create a single loco

[transadelaide]

In my view updating stock to TS2012 standard (headlight, rain) should really be done for free as it shows goodwill between customer and developer and keeps people engaged.

The majority of developers are already doing this, which is rather generous considering their products were 'complete' previously and not something that customers should be saying "you should do this" about, it's a favour that customers should be thankful for. So far I only know of four products for RW/TS2012 which have been released as "to be completed" models, the rest being complete on release or once a couple of patches were added.

I think it's fair to charge if you're getting a new or overhauled loco however. New model, sounds, cab etc is fair game to charge.

I agree. It's not like the new models we're seeing right now are the first instances of a developer releasing a completely new product that covers the same subject matter, Digital Traction have done it a few times, though regrettably with a lack of loyalty shown by them using marketing that could be considered misleading. It's the same as a car manufacturer like Holden releasing a brand new model of the Commodore a couple of years after the previous one, but without offering all current owners the chance to come in and swap over their used Commodore for the new model. This is reasonable, as the only reason making the new model may cost less than making the original in time and expenses is if the work is done more efficiently due to experience.

The gripe here is with the small number of developers who do make a very small change (or no change other than the folder structure) and start trumpeting their "new product" - developers who build up a track record of doing this deserve to have every single product harshly judged for value and quality, and an equal lack of loyalty given by customers to that developer.

Likewise, any problems with the community are down to a tiny minority of very vocal users. We've seen just a couple of people on this thread, and not that many in other threads, who are complaining unreasonably and making demands. Demanding a discounted or free copy of a new edition when the previous one is a petulant attitude of entitlement, equivalent to taking your well-used Commodore that's a couple of years old back to the Holden dealer and demanding a new model car for free. Likewise, demanding that DLC products be added to the core (as I've seen one person only do with IoW and claim that they are "many people" making "numerous overtures" to RS.com) is equally petulant, and illogical to boot - if you think it's not worth paying for don't buy it!

As has been mentioned further up, whether you purchase the shiny new product is a choice. Unless I've misunderstood Mike, I don't think he's going round to houses and forcing people to buy Meshtools products at gunpoint. Please enlighten me if I'm wrong and that it just hasn't happened to me yet because I live in Australia!

[paulz6]

Watching how the commercial world has been evolving since RS days has been very interesting so far. I am pleased to see RSC appear to have cracked the challenge in difficult economic circumstances.
RSC seem to have gone for a constant update model using steam as a marketing/distribution model. It appears to me that some products are obviously subsidising other products and the development of the core engine. I would say their stock and scenario packs are going a long way to subsidise the development of some great routes and the updating of older products.
I am happy to buy 3rd party developer products via steam, as some of the proceeds are being channelled back into the core engine development and hopefully the development of better and greater routes. Hopefully the developers are compensated by higher sales through the steam marketing/distribution model.
The consumer is not going to want to regularly re-buy a huge catalogue of add-ons which potentially has costed 1000's of pounds to accumulate.
There has been a lot of one man and his dog developer/publisher companies springing up around this product. Many of them I am waiting to see how their business develops so I can weed out the opportunistic ones from those who help push forward the genre. If a 3rd party developer/publisher releases a stock product based off of RSC's pricing structure, I want to know if the extra money is being channelled into time consuming route development, etc..

[david1]

I can see where a lot of people are coming from here, if it is a new model then yes charge for it, but the problem here is that customers are not getting the choice, they are being told yes you can have all the new features but it will cost you full price on the new model, or do without and have no new features, as the model was in developement the new deatures would have had to be added to the model so why could the new features not be also available for the old model giving customer the choice. As someone has said you would not buy and new car and then expect a later model at a discount, nether would not buy a new car then a couple of years later go back to the dealer and say can you fit aircon and satnav into this and be told sorry sir you will have to buy a new model.

[nigeltouatievans]

As someone has said you would not buy and new car and then expect a later model at a discount

But you could trade in the old car to effectively get a discount, which often isn't possible with software.

[Padsterdood]

It's all very well telling people to shut up and give thanks, but those of us stuck with RW2/Legacy and its psychedelic colours have nothing to be thankful for. While I personally can accept TS2012's shortcomings and work around them (like giving TSX a miss) I feel that it has simply not delivered for me and I have to either find a compromise (which I have) or move on. In fairness, the FPS has actually improved considerably in Legacy mode, but that has to be tempered with the knowledge that I will not after all be getting the marvellous rain and shadow effects that have been received so favourably, unless I want performance akin to a slide projector.

I am sorry if the moderators aren't too keen on posts like this, but I will keep returning to this subject to remind them that not everything is rosy in the Railworks garden.

Best wishes,
Padster

[Darpor]

It's all very well telling people to shut up and give thanks, but those of us stuck with RW2/Legacy and its psychedelic colours have nothing to be thankful for.

Padster. I am presuming you are referring to the moderator comments?

Maybe those comments were made because over the last 2-3 weeks, just about any topic on any subject has been hijacked with the same groans. Maybe the moderators are getting a bit sick of it now?

I am sorry if the moderators aren't too keen on posts like this, but I will keep returning to this subject to remind them that not everything is rosy in the Railworks garden.

And hopefully they are moderated/removed if they are in the wrong place/off topic.

It's not that I am not sympathetic to your situation, and the others who find themselves in it, far from it, my ideal world in this hobby revolves around every member working on an equal playing field and enjoying the hobby as much as they can, after all, that is why we are here. However, I am not so sympathetic when I constantly visit topics of interest to find that once again, posts are removed and threads have become inconsistent because some people cannot resist posting off topic remarks, for attention more than anything else. It's even got to the point now where its not even worth referring members to certain threads when they ask for help as those threads contain so much rubbish that the user will never find what they are looking for anyway, despite a possible solution being present in there. That for me is a sorry state of affairs.

I do hope that there are future changes in the pipeline that enable you and others to continue using RW3 though, that has to be the ultimate goal.

[nobkins]

I am sorry if the moderators aren't too keen on posts like this, but I will keep returning to this subject to remind them that not everything is rosy in the Railworks garden.

Ok, back to the old subject of the moderators think everything in RW land is rosy. Personally I think the forums are normally quite balanced but at the moment actually have a bias towards negativity rather than what you suggest. You only have to read this thread to see the range of viewpoints given and that is on a thread that you say is a "shut up and give thank" thread. There are at least as many TS2012 is not working for me type threads as there are TS2012 is amazing. There are of course people at one end of the spectrum or the other.

Given that one of the main things the UKTS forums do is allow members to support each other it is no surprise that there are many threads askign for help etc with TS2012. This is good and when they stay on topic they are an excellent resource for others with the same problem. When however they are jumped upon by a small number of people who like yourself wish to just remind people that everything is not rosey with TS2012 then that resource is damaged and the forum becomes a something that none of us want it to be.

To try and put the misconception that the moderators (and therefore UKTS) only want a TS2012 rosey garde to bed once and for all let me highlight a few items:

• News announcement relating to Legacy problems. On the main page of the web site. Not sure how you can get more prominent than that.
• Why not take a quick count of the threads in the General RW discussion area. Total up those overtly pro and negative to RS2012 and ignore the ones in the middle. I think you will find it pretty evenly split if not slightly more negative ones than pro.
• I have posted many many times encouraging people to email problems to RS.com.
• I have posted many times on the threads relating to resolving issues with TS2012
• Take a look at my youtube channel. You will find a few videos demonstrating the bugs I have found. The videos are there to assist RS.com with fixing the bugs.

If you do decide that the best thing for you and the forums is to ensure that everyone knows that "that not everything is rosy in the Railworks garden" then you have nothing of benefit to offer the UKTS members. Please feel free to post again on the problems you are having if you having something new or useful to offer.

Thanks

Jim

[ashgray]

Padsterdood - you have a PM.

Ash

[nelson]

Can't see what the problem is, the new class 50 looks smart, well worth the money, as someone else said in this thread, RW's programming is a lot more difficult to work with than the old MSTS files. No offence to Mike, the old version was great for it's time, but I'm looking forward to the new enhanced RW2012 version. Nice one, thanks.
Regards
Dave

[NeutronIC]

Wow, this is a wonderful thread, isn't it? (tongue firmly in cheek)

Comparing a car that costs £10,000 and has a profit margin of say £5,000, with a software product that costs £10 - I don't have any idea what the gross income to the developer is out of that (and how much steam / rs.com have) and beyond that, what amount the developer might then take further out of that as costs, ultimately leaving a somewhat small amount of out each sale that they might ascribe to "profit margin".

I once took my Vauxhall Vectra back to the garage and asked if I could have Cruise Control added, after all it was in the manual and apparently other identical vehicles in the range had it - answer, no, would have to buy a new car, this one was built without it and it can't be added. Pretty sure you can't get air-con added either. Satnav, well if I bought a Prius T-3 instead of the T-Spirit, it wouldn't have Satnav, and would *not* be upgradable to get satnav without buying a new car (only available in the T-Spirit), even though the car is essentially identical and has the touch screen that the satnav uses - i'm excluding from that discussion the addition of a TomTom or equivalent, since we're talking about upgrading the standard model here rather than bolting on third party products.

Whether someone chooses to upgrade their stuff to work with the new features is up to them. It may be that the way the old model was built it just won't handle the new features very well for some reason or that it will take too long to actually get them to work... and if they *do* do that, where is the incentive for someone to do as Mike has done and produce an entirely new model from scratch which is a world apart from the original one? Seriously, continuing this strange car analogy, it's like my having a Prius second generation, the 3rd generation comes out and I go back to the shop demanding some of the new features from the 3rd gen to be retrospectively added to my 2nd gen (i quite fancy LED lights and the solar panel on the roof!). I'd probably get some bemused looks followed by an indication of where the door is.

I'm always appreciative of those who choose to update their stock free of charge of course, as RSC have been doing, however they haven't been updating DLC to anything like the level that this 50 has been done. This is a new model, it's just the same class as a previous model that Mike did.

As far as I am concerned, as a consumer you are entitled to any fixes that mean the product is unable to perform in the way that it was sold to you. Anything beyond that you are certainly fine to feel upset about if you wish, but must concede that there is no "right" to expect subsequent versions to be available to you for free, and neither is there any requirement that any update be made available at a special price. These are both things that someone can choose to offer (either or both) but there is certainly no "right" to those things unless you were *promised* them as part of your purchase.

Chill out folks. You're the consumers. You can vote with your wallet if it upsets you, if enough people do the same then suppliers may decide to change their views.

Matt.