Low Frame Rates on a New Computer

[philspace]

I remember my first computer I built which had a 500mb HD!! then went out and purchased a 6 gb drive and thought that I would never fill this up!!! Does not seem that long ago!

Mark.

I've said it before - kids these days - they don't know they're born!

http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1470216

Best wishes

Phil

[VernonDozier]

my first computer had a whopping 10MB hard drive.

[davejc64]

Right I'm going to post my full computer specs so you can judge whether its a high-end system or not and as I explain RW3 runs quite smoothly

Main-board Asus P5Q SE Plus
Processor Intel Core 2 Quad Q9400 @2.66 GHz
Memory 5GB
Graphics Nvidia Geforce GTX 260 with 896 MBytes
OS Windows 7 Home premium 64bit SP1
PSU 700w (if my memory serves me correctly!)

As for how I set up RW3 it was pretty simple I just started it up turned on TSX set the settings to high on the launcher menu clicked start, went to the settings clicked high and turned on the distance and bloom things and started a scenario to test I think it was the Hitachi super-express one and it ran OK and it's been running OK since I haven't fiddled with the individual settings for the graphics haven't felt the need to since it works OK oh I should mention I run it full screen with a resolution of 1440 x 900 @ 75hz, I don't know if that will help anybody or not. Maybe I should add mine is not an off the shelf system, I built it myself!

[Kromaatikse]

I see *far* too many computers out there with lowish price tags, really fast CPUs and no (or minimal) separate graphics card. Meanwhile the number of people whose needs actually coincide with such a machine are vanishingly small.

Most people either want to do only the most basic things (web, e-mail, word processing, YouTube, maybe casual games), for which a netbook or nettop would be sufficient - or they want to run proper games at least some of the time, for which a proper graphics card is a basic requirement.

A big exception is people who do stuff like my day job, which involves lots of compiling software and chugging through data analysis, and for which any 3D graphics work actually does have to be tuned down to low-end hardware. So my workstation at the office looks very much like the typical generic PC mentioned by the OP.

Unfortunately, most people do not understand the balance between CPU and GPU - until they have already bought a machine and find out the hard way. This is a failure of the open market system - a demonstration that raw capitalism (as is well known) only works when buyers and sellers are both fully informed and rational. The usual need to upgrade the PSU as well to accommodate a worthwhile GPU is merely an additional insult.

By the way, anyone who tells you, or allows you to believe that a GF405 is "good mid range" or even "high end" is deliberately (or at minimum negligently) misleading you. It is the cheapest, shoddiest graphics card that Nvidia currently sell, cut back to the absolute bare minimum that is not actually slower than the bare Intel graphics. The only advantage of having it at all is that part of the memory bandwidth and capacity of the CPU are no longer co-opted for the graphics.

By contrast, the 7600GS *is* midrange, just old, and might actually be *faster* than the GF405. (I haven't looked up the exact specs to compare.) It reminds me of someone who "upgraded" from a Voodoo 5 to a GF4MX, and discovered to his dismay that the latter was slower.

And again by contrast, a Core 2 Quad with a GTX260 arguably has relatively more GPU power than CPU power, so while it will never have especially high framerates under RW3 and TSX due to being CPU limited, it should be able to run at a particular rate fairly consistently after selecting settings at random. Being CPU limited also means that you don't get much microstutter, but probably scenery-loading pauses will matter more.

[quickthorn]

Unfortunately, most people do not understand the balance between CPU and GPU - until they have already bought a machine and find out the hard way. This is a failure of the open market system - a demonstration that raw capitalism (as is well known) only works when buyers and sellers are both fully informed and rational. The usual need to upgrade the PSU as well to accommodate a worthwhile GPU is merely an additional insult.

Having recentlyreplaced my PC, my experience fits in with the above. It's certainly in the seller's interest if the buyer is not fully informed, and even if sellers don't deliberately mislead, they'll often obfuscate. Not knowing a great deal about computers, I asked a local IT company to quote, and it was very hard to winkle out any details about the PSU, which led me to believe they were going to install a cheap, low power unbranded PSU. I asked them to requote with a branded 80+ cert PSU, and they returned with this - http://www.trust.com/products/product.aspx?artnr=16590. I ended up building my own PC.

On the subject of getting the balance right between CPU and GPU, are there any rules of thumb to go by? I ended up cribbing most of my spec from a company that lets you configure your own PC and then builds it, although I've still found one or two things I wasn't expecting.

Finally, just for a laugh, this is the computer I've upgraded from:

AMD Duron 750 MHz CPU
NVidia Geforce MX400 256 Mb GPU
ECS K7VZA M'board
256 Mb RAM
6Gb IDE HDD
Windows 98SE

It just about ran MSTS on medium settings.

[Kromaatikse]

A good rule of thumb is to spend roughly equal amounts of money on each of four groups:

1) CPU, m/board, RAM.

2) Graphics card.

3) Monitor, keyboard, mouse, speakers (if you don't already have these). A good monitor will have an IPS or MVA panel instead of a TN, a good mouse and keyboard will protect you from RSI.

4) Everything else - case, PSU, hard disk, etc.

You can vary any particular group by up to about 50% from the average without being completely skewed.

You can also deliberately opt to move money from one group to another if you have a specific need, but spending roughly equal amounts will tend to get you a well-balanced system.

[Wikkus]

A good rule of thumb is to spend roughly equal amounts of money on each of four groups <snip>
spending roughly equal amounts will tend to get you a well-balanced system.

+1

Sound rule of thumb and one I use myself.

Rik.

[quickthorn]

A good rule of thumb [...]

Very helpful, thanks.

[markwhale]

For information on upgrading your system within the warranty period, HP will allow you to do this but you must re install the original parts if it needs to go back for repair. They will not cover the upgraded parts, or any damage caused to the system resulting from these parts, which is understandable. This applies to HP but always check your manufacturer before you start removing anything as this could void your warranty. Mind, this is the first time I have upgraded a computer that is less than a year old!
As for my GF405, its boxed and stored and collecting dust. If you happen to be talking to a stoutly HP rep in a well known computer store and he is trying to sell you a gaming computer with a GF405 inside and he tells you it will run all the top games on the market!!! ask him to prove it!!!That I would love to see!
Mark.

[ttjph]

When I was searching for a new graphics card (to play EA RailSim Demo!), a friend pointed me to this:
http://www.videocardbenchmark.net

Search for the card you're interested in, and you can immediately check whether it will be faster than your existing one - or which of the options you're considering scores highest.

I also had the Dell PSU limitation, so I ended up putting a 7600GS into my 3 GHz P3 which so far has done the job acceptably, considering the cost and the rest of my system.

[crazyfrogbro]

When I was searching for a new graphics card (to play EA RailSim Demo!), a friend pointed me to this:
http://www.videocardbenchmark.net

Search for the card you're interested in, and you can immediately check whether it will be faster than your existing one - or which of the options you're considering scores highest.

With one synthetic test you can check nothing... just watch that the 2 gpu cards have fewer points than the same single gpu
This chart is obviously not even close to reality... It's just an advertising for a pc testing software.

[Wikkus]

When I was searching for a new graphics card (to play EA RailSim Demo!), a friend pointed me to this:
http://www.videocardbenchmark.net

Search for the card you're interested in, and you can immediately check whether it will be faster than your existing one - or which of the options you're considering scores highest.

With one synthetic test you can check nothing... just watch that the 2 gpu cards have fewer points than the same single gpu
This chart is obviously not even close to reality... It's just an advertising for a pc testing software.

For the uneducated/curious/puzzled, our insane amphibian brethren is stating that the test results that Passmark's software appear to show are flawed; certainly, the AMD 6990 and the Nvidia GTX590 (each having *two* Graphics Processing Units on a single card) are both scoring lower than one would expect. Additionally, the 6950 scores higher than the 6970, again, something not quite kosher there.

Whilst there are some anomalous results here, the overall trend is about right and if you were curious as to whether the shiny new ItchyGoolie-5678 is a better prospect than your existing 3 year old AsthmaticSlug Mk1, then this would be a reasonable way to get some impression of relative performance without some propeller-headed geek blinding you with science. Similarly (and using a real-world example), if you have a 8800GTX and some oily sales-weasel is trying to sell you a GeForce GTS250 as an upgrade, this chart would genuinely allow you to tell them to cram it into their own orifice of choice.

Of course, you're a bit rogered if you have a 6970 and are considering a 6990...

Rik.

[btvboxer]

Thanks for all that.
Keep posting.

btvboxer

[166Driver]

Good morning
I know I am straying slightly off topic here
But with ever increasing demands on the size of a PSU
Some are heavy consumers of electricity and I'm going to admit that running costs are always in my mind
It isn't just a case of Railworks as I use my computer for virtually everything and I couldn't manage without one
When you consider that the current standard electricity tariff is 30 pence per Killowatt hour then a 2KW PSU would soon run up a tidy electricity bill
I digress back to preparing a few unseen G Girls for upload
Kind regards Stephen

Even if that includes a standing charge, I'd suggest another supplier.

16-17p peak
7-8p off peak

[Kromaatikse]

On the contrary, dual-GPU cards (and multiple cards in parallel) are known to have more trouble with Railworks 3 than the equivalent single-GPU cards. So in that respect, the Passmark results are actually accurate.