Signal Randomiser

[Leaf85]

I'd like comments from real drivers on how often they get diverted away from their path before I spend any effort thinking about how to randomize absolutely everything.

well, i'm currently trained on local freight movements in a very dense part of the german network with a lot of freight only lines. here you never know how you will get through since hardly any freight train runs exactly according to its schedule. trains are pretty much dispatched according to first come, first served, except for some really important ones.
there is especially one junction where a multitude of lines meet where anything can happen between an all clear run through and hours of waiting. it always depends on the present situation, which train you drive, which line you are on, what trains are approaching, how stuffed the yard at your destination is, whether there is a interruption somewhere and others. sometimes its just the signalman who forgot you...
also due to the density of the network here in some parts you can take different routes and you never know before which one it will be.

its a different matter for passenger traffic, although a multitude of disruptions, incidents, defects or construction work creates ernough variety there, too.

Interesting-- love the experience aspect, Ryosuke

A scenario designer could cover those events in a scenario pack with sequenced scenarios, I would imagine, without randomisation really. As for the 'challenge (frustration?)' of breakdowns I would assume that the process will be realistic and not "Oy, Jim, the 'gin wot fell outta da loco agin. On'ey jus 'appened this mornin!" unless you simulate dozens of Ministry of Transport investigators swarming all over the place looking for safety violations... How do you design a scenario package that is challenging enough, somewhat complicated enough yet not overly complex/convoluted or bloated given the current limits of the scenario editor, so many people can enjoy it?

What about placed triggers, so when Player Service reaches and passes point X (the trigger) an event happens such as a consist gets generated at some pre-selected point the scenario designer picks and the consist is, say, one of three variants? That way playing the same scenario over several times might give you some variety in traffic- density determined by the designer to fit what Ryosuke was saying. No idea how hard a trigger system would be to add, since the scenario editor has a pseudo trigger in the guise of a timer/pop-up bit?

Anyway, appologies for the rambling post

Kind regards,
Dave

[crazyfrogbro]

A scenario designer could cover those events in a scenario pack with sequenced scenarios, I would imagine, without randomisation really.

Not really. Because the scenario editor gets "blocked path" messages, and his nerves are blow up after trying everything :DD

[Kromaatikse]

Well, it's clear that a more robust and intelligent Dispatcher would be needed to make this work. Consider for example the tutorial on single-line passing which I posted in the FAQ section last weekend. It is necessary to arrange things quite carefully to provoke the Dispatcher into allowing the meet to happen in the appropriate place.

Fortunately, RSC have laid the groundwork with RW3 to allow better Dispatchers to be implemented in future.

[crazyfrogbro]

Fortunately, RSC have laid the groundwork with RW3 to allow better Dispatchers to be implemented in future.

With what? Better dispatcher should be in railworks already, not just in the future.

[Darpor]

So what are we gleaning from this thread so far?

The dispatcher is rubbish and it makes all scenarios predictable and not challenging.

Should all scenario creators give up now, saying as their creations are truly pointless?

[Kromaatikse]

Fortunately, RSC have laid the groundwork with RW3 to allow better Dispatchers to be implemented in future.

With what? Better dispatcher should be in railworks already, not just in the future.

They have implemented dispatcher versioning, so that they can change the dispatcher without risking breaking old scenarios which rely on old dispatcher behaviour.

The first concrete improvement is that AI can now shunt, in a limited fashion.

[CaptScarlet]

Should all scenario creators give up now, saying as their creations are truly pointless?

I hope not as I and I think many others would be worse off without the creations you and other scenario authors have made to the sim.

Regards

John

[Kariban]

Given all trains having the same class, does the player train always have priority?

[Darpor]

Given all trains having the same class, does the player train always have priority?

Not in my experience, depending on the instructions given, percentages changed and all other factors, the dispatcher can actually be quite dynamic. Sometimes it can actually change depending on how well you run the scenario. Even recently, the people testing my scenarios have had differing results when two services of equal priority go head to head, its either making a real calculation and putting one in front or its completely confused and picks one at random. Yes, I did say "dynamic", of course nobody will believe that, especially those who tried once, got a iii and gave up.

In terms of randomisation, of course we want as many different variables as possible. However, you can have random fun, take Edinburgh to Glasgow for example. Fire up the National Rail LDB and place all of the AI services all over the route, all working to the correct timetables and priorities and of course assign one for yourself at one end. Play the scenario and its about as random as you are going to get, you don't have a clue what the hell is going to happen, even as the creator.

[crazyfrogbro]

So everyone should sit down and and write a mail to rsc support about the issues of the dispatcher maybe those mails will give a boost for the development

[Kariban]

Not in my experience, depending on the instructions given, percentages changed and all other factors, the dispatcher can actually be quite dynamic. Sometimes it can actually change depending on how well you run the scenario. Even recently, the people testing my scenarios have had differing results when two services of equal priority go head to head, its either making a real calculation and putting one in front or its completely confused and picks one at random. Yes, I did say "dynamic", of course nobody will believe that, especially those who tried once, got a iii and gave up.

Great, that's what I wanted to hear so you *can* actually miss your path if you don't drive to time. The problem would be arriving early and another train being held for you when it should have been the other way round, I guess. And of course the AI has no random behaviour at all.

[david1]

Too add more of a variation maybe when a scenario is made maybe a few different ones could be done, it would all depend on the route though if the route had lots of junctions this would be easier, although i have not tried this in RW, something i notice in MSTS i could ramomise the activity although it only worked on a couple of routes, i had one on the Woodhead route where my train merged with another line that had a freight train on it, i had to pass a certain point by a certain time which was a narrow margin of around 15 secs, if i made it i was routed in front of the freight and got a clear run, but if i failed the freight got the route and i would be held at a red then have to follow on yellows delaying me and then later i would be further delayed by a local train. might have to try this on railworks

[bigvern]

Coming back to Darren's point, I don't think it is a case of scenarios being pointless, more a case of replay value as the outcome is usually totally predictable. It's even less fun for the scenario author as you have the knowledge of what you've done before even the first beta test.

In some respects this is little different to MSTS which had the same restrictions as Railworks, in that everything moves over a fixed path with no deviaton, randomisation or any means of introducing same into the arrangements.

At the moment best we can do is try and make it interesting, maybe tell a little story as I did with the WCML North one I recently uploaded. Then live in hope that by the time we get RW4 or RW5 in 2015 or 2016, the programme will have been updated to offer the means to have a dynamic and varied experience as you run a session (and I don't mean via multiplayer either).

[RudolfJan]

Fortunately, RSC have laid the groundwork with RW3 to allow better Dispatchers to be implemented in future.

The dispatcher is brilliant, starts the AI exactly according to schedule. Never seen this with real railway companies. It might be interesting to have the possibility to randomize start time for AI consist within a limited range, e.g. 2-3 minutes, and incidentally heavy delays. This makes scenarios a bit less predictable. If this really helps? Being a train driver is boring in reality, while you need to keep constant focus and alertness. That's what it makes a challenging job. Might be interesting as well to create a set of say 10 scenario's, each with variation in AI and maybe time of the day.

[Oldpufferspotter]

How about creating a scenario, then cloning it ten times, alter the AI trains' timings and via points (from main line to loops etc), alter the player train's timings etc, so that you end up with ten variations on the same service.
Finally, and the important bit, alter the scenario names to gibberish so that you or the player simply does not know which scenario s/he will be playing, could be any one of ten.
Good idea? No? oh.
regards Ted.