Consist make up

[pjt1974]

Hi

Somethig I've never been able to get my head around or find too much information on is the formation of carraiges to create a passenger consist.

To the uninitiated, we have BK, SK, TSO, FK, BG, BFK etc....etc....
Thank fully I found this on Wiki which was useful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Ra ... signations
however, I couldn't find how all these different type of coaches would form up to create a consist.
Obviously there is no one answer due to the different types of service but there must be a general rule of thumb.

What would be the normal make up of a loco hauled train leaving Euston or Kings Cross heading to Glasgow and Edinburgh respectively?

In terms of rural/local lines, what would be thier general make up if a loco was only pulling 2 or 3 coaches?

Can anybody more in the know enlighten me and ,quite possibly, one or two others as to the dark art of forming a consist?

regards

Phil

[Kariban]

What era? it matters for which catering vehicles you put in. Generally though for older - say 70s-80s - express trains you want one catering vehicle, 3 or so first class, some sort of luggage vehicle ( probably a BG for longhaul routes ) and the rest is 2nd. You can add one or two parcels/newspaper vans too if you want. If you go back further then it very much depends on the actual service, I think - there were so many different types.

From what I can remember of secondary services, they were basically a guards vehicle and some accomodation, apparently anything to hand. I can remember a trip from Bath to Exeter via Westbury ( a bit of a long way round ) in probably 1981 in a rake of about 7 Mk1s, and none of them were the same! Likewise Barnstaple trains would be 5-6 assorted, and the same for Salisbury. I rather doubt it was all that different in steam days, I get the feeling operations didn't really change until the mid 80s.

[bdy26]

It really does depend on the service, and has varied considerably depending on the train and the era. If you want to take Euston to Glasgow in the 1950s, certain services were allocated duchesses (Royal Scot, Euston to Perth Sleeper) and were loaded accordingly, but others were normally diagrammed for a duchess or a lizzie but were loaded to allow a royal scot or jubilee to be rostered if necessary. There were loading limits for certain sections, e.g. Class 5 were allowed only load 8 northwards over Shap. Trains also were split and joined, portions added and dropped far more frequently than in the 70s and 80s, and had pretty much stopped by the 90s.

General principles - you need a brake vehicle, first class is generally at the London end of most services (as is the luggage van(s)), there will be a catering car between first and third on most major services. Loads on the mainline could be anything from 8 to 16, though the Duchesses under test could take 20 over Shap. Note some of the faster and non-stop trains were more lightly loaded.

Best bet is to dig out the books and find a picture to get the certainty.

[malkymackay]

Photo research is one way of trying to figure out the make-up of services. Even better, if you can get hold of them, are Carriage Working Notices which list the booked formations. As an example, from mid 70's ECML documents, a fairly typical northbound express from Kings Cross to Edinburgh would be : BSO - 5xSO - RKB - RUO - FO - FK - BG. The coaches would be Air-conditioned Mk2, except the Kitchen Buffet, Restaraunt Open & the BG - they would be Mk1. From the the same period, something like the Liverpool-Newcastle service would be: 7xTSO - RMB - FK - BG. Two of the TSO would be lost for the winter timetable & up to the early 80's the stock would be a mix of Dual Heat Mk1 & non-aircon Mk2. In the later years of loco haulage, air-con Mk2 would be cascaded in.

[nobkins]

This is why I can't make realistic scenarios I just don't have the knowledge!
Good thread so keep the info and links coming. I had been trying to find out what all the coach designations meant so that wiki page is a godsend.

Cheers

Jim

[passedcleaner]

Couple of random comments;

Best place to find train formations is in photography, books, online sources, etc.

In steam days, long distance expresses would be heavily portioned. In most cases, each portion would have 1st and 3rd class accommodation, plus a brake vehicle with luggage space. The 'main' part of the train would usually also include the catering vehicles, unless these were booked to be detached at some point en-route. In this case they would be marshalled wherever operationally convenient, e.g. on the very rear or front.

A completely fictional example off the top of my head, but one that I hope illustrates the point, could be a mid-1950s London-Perth express, departing Euston mid-morning.

Stopping pattern; Euston-Crewe-Preston-Lancaster-Carlisle-Larbert-Stirling-Gleneagles-Perth.

Formation on departure from Euston as-follows;

Train Engine
2x mail vans (detached at Carlisle)
Euston-Perth portion (BG-BSK-CK-CK-SO-SK)
Dining cars (RFO-KF-RFO: detached at Carlisle)
Euston-Windermere portion (BCK-SK: detached at Lancaster, attach to local service)
Euston-Workington portion (BCK: detached Lancaster, attach to local service)
Euston-Blackpool portion (SK-CK: detached Preston - see below)

At Crewe a further Blackpool portion attaches off a Western Region Swansea-Manchester express, adding SK-BCK to the rear of the existing Blackpool portion (and providing a brake van for the detachment at Preston.)

At Carlisle, the detached dining cars are replaced by a fresh SK-SK (due to high summer loadings) and a further 3 mail vans starting a Carlisle-Inverness journey.

Final note; on arrival at Perth, BSK-CK at the front of the portion from Euston are shunted onto an evening departure to Aberdeen to provide a through working.

Train consist therefore as-follows;

Euston-Crewe: load 14 + 2 mail vans
Crewe-Preston: load 16 + 2 mail vans
Preston-Lancaster: load 12 + 2 mail vans
Lancaster-Carlisle: load 9 + 2 mail vans
Carlisle-Perth: load 8 + 3 mail vans (but only 6 of these started from London!)

From this we could deduce the possible locomotive allocation, as-follows;

Euston-Crewe: Rebuilt 'Scot' 4-6-0
Crewe-Carlisle: 'Princess' 4-6-2
Carlisle-Perth: 2x 'Black Five' 4-6-0s

I've conjured up all the above out of my imagination but there is logic to the process. Consider the portions, then the dining requirements (in this case, lunch only) and try to imagine reasonable loadings for locomotives in the process.


Hope this helps

Seb

[passedcleaner]

...first class is generally at the London end of most services (as is the luggage van(s)), there will be a catering car between first and third on most major services.

This is not necessarily true at all, depends on the arrangement of the portions. 'First class at the London end' was a mid-70s idea that replaced the previous arrangement of 'first class in the centre' but this was only in operationally convenient cases.

Seb

[ashgray]

It remains a general operational rule though, as can be seen daily at Paddington.

Ash

[passedcleaner]

Yes, admittedly I was talking about steam days. Today its the exclusive rule as you rightly point out. Pretty boring if you ask me!

Seb

[USRailFan]

Modern-day loco-hauled and HST consists can be found here: http://www.thejunction.org.uk/form.html
The rule of thumb seems to be to have the 1st class at the London end, just in front of the DVT (rear powercar for HSTs).

[malkymackay]

One of the things with coach formations, is that nothing was really set in stone. There is plenty of pictorial evidence out there that is at odds with the planned workings. It's something that many younger enthusiasts may not appreciate, with the lack of loco-hauled services, that there was a fair degree of flexibility with formations well into the 80's. In earlier times, it was normal practice to have some stock that only ever turned a wheel for a few weekends in summer.

[Kariban]

I can remember "first class next to the catering coach" in the middle, roughly, rather than right at one end. Also falls down somewhat when you had composite stock. Guards van in the middle is also not terribly uncommon.

[pjt1974]

Lots of excellent info.
My usual uneducated consist is Loco, 4 x FK(1st corridor), 4xSK(standard corridor) and a TSO(I believe it's something to do with parcels or gaurd)

For those, like me, who aren't clued up on all this, Railworks can be a bit confusing but a good starting point to learn and expand railways as a hobby, however, finding the information can sometimes be a bit of a drag and ,when you do find it, it's all in jargon.

Keep the info and links coming, all very interesting.

regards

Phil

[Kariban]

TSO = trailer second open ( standard class is a pretty recent change of wording ) which is what it means, a non-compartment second class carriage. Guards vehicles were Brake-xxx, so BSK, BCK, BG etc. Corridor ( the K part ) doesn't mean corridor connectors, it means there's a corridor connecting the compartments in the carriage.

[1S811985]

As an acceptable rule of thumb for almost any UK era have twice as many second class as first class, position restaurant/buffet cars between the classes, include at least one brake vehicle at one or other end and have the first class positioned at the London and/or Up end of travel.

If you want prototype then do some research, learn to tell one type of coach from another and dont be afraid to make the odd mistake. It helps too to know your era, as formations, liveries and coach desgnations changed over time. If in doubt, ask.

IS81