Undrivable Locomotives

[Acorncomputer]

Don't get too upset Stuart.

I am sure that most people are very happy with the 56xx and were aware that it was different when they bought it but with such an innovative model in a class of its own, it is inevitable that it will have taken many by surprise.

[stuart666]

Don't get too upset Stuart.

I am sure that most people are very happy with the 56xx and were aware that it was different when they bought it but with such an innovative model in a class of its own, it is inevitable that it will have taken many by surprise.

Im not so much upset as exasperated. There seems to be a universal acceptance the locomotive is a step forward, yet there seems a belief that butchering all the features that make it what it is are the sensible way forward. its an exercise in doublethink I cant quite wrap my head around. A difficult drive is what it was about. Having an easy mode means there was absolutely no point Pete putting in all the yards of scripting that he took months to perfect.

Look, anyone is entitled not to like it. Quite so. I dont even take exception to those who dont hold it in regard. But the suggestion that nobody made it clear that it was hard to drive is just plain wrong. It was up there in black and white, and in the manual. I know, I wrote some of it.

That it took people by surprise does not shock me, but lets remember RSC went out their way to put training videos up before the thing was released. There is no reason why anyone who wanted to acquaint themselves with the facts would not have been aware what it was all about.

No, Im not upset. Im not even angry. Utterly bewildered would be closer to a description I think.

[Acorncomputer]

Go and have a gin & tonic, put your feet up and think about all the hundreds if not thousands of people all over the World happily playing with the 56xx

[RW2011]

I think the 5600 is brilliant Stuart, best thing since Wonderloaf.
Can we please have a 2800\2884 package please ?

[gptech]

......allowing all DLC manuals to be downloaded from the Steam Store page so people can decide before purchasing whether they really want that item.

As far as I'm aware that is already the case, and has been pointed out in the case of the 56xx, the fact that it wasn't a 'push the go stick and you're away' driving experience was well documented and discussed so no-one can say "I didn't know it was going to be harder than the other DLC"

[stuart666]

I think the 5600 is brilliant Stuart, best thing since Wonderloaf.
Can we please have a 2800\2884 package please ?

As I say, I just did the physics, virtually everything elses is Petes, but appreciate the endorseement. Ill certainly pass that along, but Im dont think he has any plans to do anything else. Last I heard he has put trains behind him at the moment and is addicted to World of Tanks.

[transadelaide]

......allowing all DLC manuals to be downloaded from the Steam Store page so people can decide before purchasing whether they really want that item.

As far as I'm aware that is already the case, and has been pointed out in the case of the 56xx, the fact that it wasn't a 'push the go stick and you're away' driving experience was well documented and discussed so no-one can say "I didn't know it was going to be harder than the other DLC"

Class 156 - "pro-only" item, manual not freely available from the Steam Store.
WCML North - contains "pro-only" Class 86, manual available but it has no information on driving the 86.
Class 86 - "pro-only" item, manual available but it has no information on driving it.
Class 60 - uses vastly different braking system to all other RW2 diesel locos, no manual available, manual included on purchase has no instructions for driving.
Class 101 - requires use of gear change, manual available but it has no information on driving it, however an introduction scenario is included.
Class 02 - requires use of gear change, manual available but it has no information on driving it.

It is good that the 5600 manual is freely available, but it is unfortunately the exception these days rather than the rule. Most of the DLC that has come out in the last 12 months has not had the manual made available on the Steam Store page, and the 5600 is the only one so far featuring advanced driving features which has had a proper explanation to general customers (not just UKTS members) available before purchase.

Maybe what is needed is for RS.com to issue templates for simple control physics for DLC creators to use, one for diesel, one for electric and one for steam. It would bypass all scripts and safeworking systems like AWS, and basically all the DLC creator would need to do is insert the appropriate amount of power, weight and maximum speed. It wouldn't provide realistic physics, but it would be a good low-effort way to make sure a simple control version is available for those people who want one.

[Kariban]

I do wonder why a lot of them don't just work anyway - it might just be a case of missing the SimpleThrottleAndBrake control or whatever it was called. Scripted engines basically just overlay their workings on top of the normal behavior ( well you can do funny things with the brakes, but most people don't ). There may be a couple of systems that need to be scripted to be expert-mode only.

[partyspiritz]

At the end of the day there are people out there could make it work for all

Regards


John

[mikesimpson]

I started this thread and I am sorry if I upset Stuart and others regarding their fine models. I only mentioned them as examples of models I was having problems driving 'out of the box'.

No doubt it is true that RSC published training videos and manuals (I have no idea where you can get the manuals without buying the product though). However I did not buy it from RSC as I rarely visit their site, but got it from Steam and all I saw was the picture of a tank loco which was not what I really wanted but as it was on special, (and included a fish wagon which I did want), I bought it with a bunch of other stuff. There was no mention of it being difficult to drive, nor is there anything in the Steam description of the WCML North which says that you need a course in special driving to move the Class 86.

This was all I was trying to point out. Many people on this site are railway experts and do read all the manuals and count the rivets etc., but the vast majority of RailWorks purchasers on steam are those who just grab the specials and load up the program and off they go. If the trains won't run, then they ditch the program, tell their friends it is rubbish, and go play Crysis which I am sure is not what RSC want.

Mike

[gptech]

So....it'd be fair to say that better documentation is a good starting point then...
a seperate sub-section on the Steam store pages for 'Expert controls only/challenging to drive locos'' perhaps?

[stuart666]

Mike, there is absolutely no reason to be sorry. Its your opinion and I respect that. That I disagree shouldnt be taken as me being angry about it.

The fundimental suggestion that Railworks should be useable by everyone across the board is not something I disagree with. Whether that was ever really achieveable with the 56xx, or a lot of the more realistic models available, I just have my doubts.

That there SHOULD still be simple models available for people to have a go at, I dont think a bad idea. I just really dont want to see that done across the board is all.

[RW2011]

I think the 5600 is brilliant Stuart, best thing since Wonderloaf.
Can we please have a 2800\2884 package please ?

As I say, I just did the physics, virtually everything elses is Petes, but appreciate the endorseement.

Great physics and great model, thanks to you both.

[transadelaide]

That there SHOULD still be simple models available for people to have a go at, I dont think a bad idea. I just really dont want to see that done across the board is all.

Why not? I can't see any logic here, could you please explain it a bit?

If a model has both an expert control model and a simple control model then you would always be free to choose the expert control model. The presence of a simple control model for other people who do want to use it would make no difference to your use of the product, except for opening up that product to a larger customer base and allowing for more time and money to be spent on developing a higher-quality product for everybody.

I'm not saying that simple control models should have huge amounts of work put into them. A basically tweaked copy of the Black 5 (steam), Class 47 (diesel loco), Class 166 (DMU) or DB101 (electric) should be enough even if it is 'wrong' because anybody who cares about the performance will be using the expert control model.

[Kariban]

I'm not sure you actually can, once you've abstracted all the cab controls like you do when you're scripting the cab - but I don't know much about simple mode. I can't see how you translate a steam engine regulator+reverser into a simple mode control... are you suggesting you abandon the cab control totally in simple mode? I don't think you can tie one cab control to two physics engine controls, not sure though.