Undrivable Locomotives

[stuart666]

Id certainly pay good money for a County. Unfortunately its probably one of those GWR locomotives that DLC producers will always overlook. A shame really, considering the progress going into the new build at Didcot.

I'd like to see the Star as well - ages ago I got a book called "The GWR Stars, Castles and Kings" by O.S. Nock, pub David and Charles, which charted the history of the GWR mainline locos; a really good book which very much showed how early the pattern was set - the Stars in particular were way ahead of their time.

Note that while the GWR couldn't really use anything more powerful than the Kings due to the network they had, the pattern continued with ex-GWR staff into the LMS classes and, finally, into the BR Standards.

Ruth

Thats a very fine book indeed. I cherish my copy. People have criticized Nock for sometimes gettings his facts wrong, but I always find him an intelligent, occasionally witty commentator on Locomotive development. His book on the Royal Scots and 'Baby Scots' is also well worth getting.

As for a Star, I completely agree. One commentator called it a 90 percent Castle, which overlooks that the Star was well able to keep up with Castle timings, and occasionally better them. Not surprising really, when you get down to it all a Castle was a Star with a bigger boiler and a rethought cab. Clearly there is a place for these in Railworks.

As for a new build one, Lode Star (now at STEAM museum in Swindon) will almost certainly never run again. She (and Caerphilly Castle) were rebuilt by Swindon workers in the 1960s, and as such are among only 3 locomotives that display finished Swindon work practice. (The other I think being the sole surviving Dean Goods). NRM will sensibly never risk that being lost. Indeed, Im surprised they even allow City of Truro to be run. Perhaps the NRM risks being sacked and burned by demented GWR enthusiasts if they refuse.

A Star replica one day will be seen to be an intelligent idea (particularly if they build the boiler with modern ideas, to give it the steaming property of its larger cousin the Castle). Perhap Pete Waterman will consider doing it with the frames of Thornbury Castle. We do have something like 7 other survivors.

[Acorncomputer]

It takes years of experience and training to become a fireman, driver, signalman or any other of the hundreds of jobs related to the running of a railway system.

You cannot just sit down and become an expert in any one without training and experience, even in a simulator.

The ideal situation is to allow those that want to progress to more complicated matters to be able to do so but also allow more casual users to get enjoyment from an easier approach.

Authenticity is not a key ingredient with RailWorks in order to enjoy it.

[Kromaatikse]

Going back to practical matters...

The AWS is not present in most Railworks steam models. It is there in some of the larger ones - Tornado, Flying Scotsman, Light Pacific and Hall, IIRC, and possibly some others which I don't have. All of the others can be driven from outside, even on a modern route.

Not all of the routes are AWS fitted either. In particular, SDJR, Falmouth and IOW are not fitted, and Port Road is mostly unfitted (except at the Dumfries end). So an AWS fitted train can be driven on those from outside. Technically, you can also do so on the American and German routes using UK stock. The German routes have PZB, but this doesn't trigger AWS equipment.

Additionally, the AWS "pings" do *not* need to be responded to. It's the buzzers you need to worry about, and you only get those at signals that are not green and some speed-restriction warnings. Therefore there are substantial portions of Newcastle-York (which doesn't have Morpeth warnings, being set before that era) and WCML-N (which does have them, but most of the restrictions are not severe enough to warrant them) which can be driven on greens from outside the cab. You can set things up so that you will never get a yellow until you have almost reached either of the termini (or, on WCML-N, Law Junction), at which point you really should be paying more attention.

The Class 86 is special. It could have been utterly soulless - after all, it is an electric. Instead, we got the first locomotive where we have to sit down and *drive* it. If you don't want to do that... well, it does still work okay as AI traffic. Ultimately though, if it's the 86 that you want to demo, you will effectively be demoing the enhanced driving controls.

The same goes, to a lesser extent, for the 57 and 156. The 57 is no harder to drive (in it's current form) than any other diesel - though an enhancement is planned which may change this. The 156 just requires more care to set up the cab, then it can be driven as normal. I'm sure kids would actually enjoy setting the destination blind.

[cilldroichid]

I'm a scenery buff myself and like having a good look around a route when i download it to begin with. However after maybe 5 or 6 times driving up and down on most routes you've seen what has to be seen and it comes down to the driving experience thereafter, in my opinion the more buttons to press and levers to adjust (within reason) the better, to me the more you have to do the more it feels like a real driving experience.

For beginners the F4 hud is a simple enough control to use, at least i found it to be, i'm slowly moving away from it now. I know its not suitable for a few trains but are there not enough easy to drive trains available already?

[partyspiritz]

As I have said at the beginning of the thread I do lots of small demo’s and a lot of them are at schools. I have tried using simple mode and there is a lot of locos that don't work. In some cases I have had to put stuff into Rail Simulator to use it. That of course brings a whole set of other problems to much steam being the main one.

There has been a few creators who have be helpful in telling me how to turn down the steam but in most cases not so. I do all this out of my own pocket and have even paid for my advanced CRV Check so I can work in the schools. My reward for this to see there faces and hear there imagination.


Regards



John

[Kariban]

Hm, might be an idea to collaborate with someone to do a demo route specifically written for showing off? ie, no functional signals ( nice to have semaphores as moving scenery ), route set up for views etc.

[david1]

I thought the whole point of RW is that is a train simulator, as such it simulates real life trains as such you have AWS that need to be cancelled if the signal is at anything other than clear and if it is clear the a audible ping is given just as in a real train, i like all these features like Oovee class 156 instead of pressing 1 switch and all the correct lights come on you have to presss each switch separatly for tail lights, marker lights and headlights this adds realism, the fact that the train grinds to a halt is beacause the real train would if it was driven without cancelling AWS or damaging componets onboard the train. I cant see the point of a simulator if you just want to watch the countryside go by without pings, bells and no input, there are always real trains that you can do that on but the downside to that is, if you are like me you may want to ram a mobile phone down some other passengers throat that is spoiling you relaxing journey.

[transadelaide]

I thought the whole point of RW is that is a train simulator, as such it simulates real life trains as such you have AWS that need to be cancelled if the signal is at anything other than clear and if it is clear the a audible ping is given just as in a real train, i like all these features like Oovee class 156 instead of pressing 1 switch and all the correct lights come on you have to presss each switch separatly for tail lights, marker lights and headlights this adds realism, the fact that the train grinds to a halt is beacause the real train would if it was driven without cancelling AWS or damaging componets onboard the train. I cant see the point of a simulator if you just want to watch the countryside go by without pings, bells and no input, there are always real trains that you can do that on but the downside to that is, if you are like me you may want to ram a mobile phone down some other passengers throat that is spoiling you relaxing journey.

I completely understand this and hope that the number of features simulated only increases over time. I love the challenge of the Class 86 because it is a locomotive that you actually have to drive rather than just push a lever forwards, it's like taking a good motor racing simulation game and using only the manual transmission. I only play on expert mode, except on the first running of a new route where I am more interested in inspecting the route.

However, at the same time there is plenty of space in the platform for the more casual users to use simpler controls, and having this ability is actually a necessity for the future survival and continued development of RailWorks. There is only so much money that can go into the program if it just being used by a very small niche market of people already interested in train simulation, to survive it must attract people new to the train simulation gaming genre. It is for this reason that being on Steam and participating in their major sales is the best move that RS.com have made, and probably the sole reason they are still in business and able to continue developing the program over two years after the launch of RailWorks.

An analogy can be drawn with the successful motor racing titles by the Swedish company Simbin. In their flagship title RACE 07 (and it's various expansion packs) it is quite easy to cause some kind of catastrophe on every corner, and getting a full lap (let alone a full race) right is a real accomplishment. It's a fantastically difficult and realistic simulator, but at the same time they also include a number of driver aids like traction control, stability assistance and anti-lock brakes so that it is still accessible to lesser-skilled people. I do use the traction control and anti-lock brakes on low because I play only with a keyboard, but it's still tough work!

[trainsmit]

In my opinion a payware loco for RW2 should include simple controls.

[gptech]

Some may argue that the phrase "simple controls" equates to "dumbed down controls", after all the so called 'expert controls' aren't difficult to master, are they?
If you wish to showcase RW to complete novices choose an easy to drive loco, leave the 'complicated' ones like the class 86 as a target for the novice to aspire to mastering!
Just as in real life, techniques in games need to be mastered and practice makes perfect.
The HUD gives a visual notification of AWS warnings when driving outside of the cab, the ribbon along the bottom shows approaching signals so it's not hard to be prepared for an AWS warning. I agree that some degree of 'novice aiding' is needed, but rather than making the controls too simplistic is an 'auto AWS re-set' (as an example) something we should be asking for, or at least investigating the possibilities of?

[transadelaide]

Some may argue that the phrase "simple controls" equates to "dumbed down controls", after all the so called 'expert controls' aren't difficult to master, are they?
If you wish to showcase RW to complete novices choose an easy to drive loco, leave the 'complicated' ones like the class 86 as a target for the novice to aspire to mastering!
Just as in real life, techniques in games need to be mastered and practice makes perfect.
The HUD gives a visual notification of AWS warnings when driving outside of the cab, the ribbon along the bottom shows approaching signals so it's not hard to be prepared for an AWS warning. I agree that some degree of 'novice aiding' is needed, but rather than making the controls too simplistic is an 'auto AWS re-set' (as an example) something we should be asking for, or at least investigating the possibilities of?

Why add extra code to cancel AWS/PZB alerts automatically when the simple controls already have AWS/PZB disabled? It seems a rather inefficient way of doing things.

In my opinion the simple controls (where present) are perfectly adequate for their purpose. As others have already said, including them in all DLC would be a good step. Where they are not available (56XX, Class 86, Class 156) that fact should be openly disclosed on the Steam Store page, along with allowing all DLC manuals to be downloaded from the Steam Store page so people can decide before purchasing whether they really want that item.

[RW2011]

In my opinion a payware loco for RW2 should include simple controls.

Agreed, but they should all aspire to also having the degree of realism, that is available with the Class 156, 86 & 5600\6600 DLC.
When using the controls in Advanced Mode.

[stuart666]

Yes but it was very clearly marked on the 56xx that it was difficult to drive. I said it was hard to drive. Pete said it was hard to drive. The beta testers said it was hard to drive. Even on the UKTS webpage it was very clearly stated that it was challenging to drive. Ultimately I think posting up that it lacked simple controls would do little than insult anyones intelligence. I mean, it could hardly be made clearer. Looked at the page on steam.

'Beautifully modeled by Peter Gillam with highly accurate controls and cab features, the 56XX tank locomotive is one of the most realistic steam driving experiences available for the PC'.
'Operating features on the 56XX include cylinder cocks with required prototypical operation and dynamic cylinder . steam, ejector operated brake vacuum creation including leakage management, feathered safety valves, dynamic smoke effects, notched reverser, operational reverser locking lever, steam leak effects when stationary, mason's valve and steam heating valve affect the heating system pressure gauge, custom head code lamps which can be set from the cab, operational water tank gauge, dual chime whistle with working in-cab chains and external steam blasts, plus operable front and rear windows, doors, seats and roof and window panels.'

Ultimately if anyone thought there was an easy mode after reading all that AND the manual that I and many others cast blood sweat and tears upon which can be downloaded for free, well, what can I say. Maybe people bought what they expected and wanted it to be, rather than reading what it was an considering whether they were up for the challenge. I havent bought the 156 for a similar reason, that its creators have made it very clear that its not an easy driving challenge.

Other than putting a skill or age range on the side of their products, what else can RSC logically do?

[Kariban]

Um, there's really nothing hard about the 156 just have to remember to turn the lights on.

Mebbe they need a "Pro" sticker.

[stuart666]

Um, there's really nothing hard about the 156 just have to remember to turn the lights on.

Mebbe they need a "Pro" sticker.

Yeah, but where do you shovel the coal?