Railworks, Then and Now, The Community

[Acorncomputer]

Just a suggestion ... but to those who have not ventured beyond the RailWorks forums on UKTS, take a wander around some of the others, particularly the photograph forums, where there is much to see of interest.

[Kariban]

I don't think you can really include one-off costs for software and so on into the costs to make just one DLC, unless it's something that DLC and only that DLC needs. 3D modelling software and it's attached training are reusable resources with a fixed cost ( unlike the user, unless they're Darren! ), the same as project management software and anything else you can think of. If you're a tiny startup you can get professional quality software for free, it just might take a little longer to complete your product with more awkward to use tools.

There are certain levels of professional involvement also; DLC are ( currently ) RSC's core business, if they don't get something out the door in a reasonable time then they go bust, and they can't afford to spend weeks making the hot plate in the cab brew tea when you turn it on because then the DLC would end up at £50 just to cover time spent. Others, lets say 2nd tier producers, might have professional costs to recoup like paying for research information or have contracted part of the job out, but have other income sources so they're not so concerned if there's time overruns because they're paying themselves in the enjoyment of making something great rather than cash. And then lastly there's those with no costs who're making the most of the fact that people are prepared to pay for anything.

I don't have problems with anyone making money; I do take a long term view in that in a couple of years the total cost of paid products for this game is going to be absolutely phenomenal if it carries on at this rate and it might put people off if that's all they see, or if that's what they think they'll have to fork out to have a quality experience. It would certainly put me off if I hadn't found the freeware libraries, but then I expect free alternatives to appear where there's a costly one, it's how software in general works. Someone who's not been professionally employed to investigate software might not think in the same way. So, once again, find some great piece of freeware and promote the hell out of it.

[albionrail]

Just a suggestion ... but to those who have not ventured beyond the RailWorks forums on UKTS, take a wander around some of the others, particularly the photograph forums, where there is much to see of interest.

Thanks for the pointer Geoff, I had a quick skirt around the place but must have missed that one.. Usefull to know, I may just have a contribtution for it tommorow. I am planning to get a few snaps of the 70013 Oliver Cromwell as she makes a pickup from Stevenage as part of the 'Jolly fisherman' tour tommorow morning. It would make my day to contribute a bit more than just my opinion... And as such I intend to renew my premium subscription, as I think that is what makes our hobby unique, the ability to contribute and balance out the scale. I hope that makes sense,

Cheers

Eddie.

[ashgray]

Going back to the payware discussion, let's not forget that one potential customer is not necessarily the same as the next. I'd think that most fall into one of two categories: those who understand the software's capabilities and are comfortable making their own scenarios; and those who bought the software to run trains and cannot get their heads around the developmental side, and consequently are unable to make their own scenarios.

As "value for money" depends on your own perspective (i.e. what you are prepared/able to pay for something versus how badly you want it), those in the first group might baulk at paying for scenario packs produced by others, whilst those in the second group may well see payware offerings as a godsend that greatly adds to their enjoyment of the simulator. There's surely room for both, without either faction needing to feel threatened by the other.

Added to the above, of course, is the question of wealth. Someone who has a lot of disposable income after the bills are paid each month, but who doesn't necessarily have the available spare time (kids, work, etc) to delve into the editor and learn the necessary skills is likely to buy payware scenario packs as it's the easiest way to expand RW. Conversely. those who have both the funds to buy AND the time/skills to produce may prefer to make their own. Those who are on a tight budget, unemployed, but DO have the necessarily skills may have little option but to make their own scenarios but are likely to get maximum enjoyment from their creations as they can tailor them precisely to their own preferences.

Straightforward? No, and that's because we're a diverse bunch of hobbyists wth different personal circumstances, but who all want similar end results from the sim.

There's room for us all here.

Just my two-penny-worth..

Ash

[styckx]

In an ironic twist to my "gold rush" situation post last night I stumbled across a thread of a "startup" from an out of no where guy selling American scenarios at $2.50 a pop. Not only is the price more than doubled that or almost double that of others (if you break them down per scenario cost), it required a repaint of mine to actually run the scenario he was selling for profit. It was even featured in the promotional video, and even a link where to download on his website. All without ever once seeking permission. Accident or not, I'm pretty turned off at the possbility this could happen again, or to any other repainter or freeware developer. I was lucky and just happened to spot it but it did show that people are seeing green and rushing to get a peice of the action with little forethought just to make a buck.

[Darpor]

In an ironic twist to my "gold rush" situation post last night I stumbled across a thread of a "startup" from an out of no where guy selling American scenarios at $2.50 a pop. Not only is the price more than doubled that or almost double that of others (if you break them down per scenario cost), it required a repaint of mine to actually run the scenario he was selling for profit. It was even featured in the promotional video, and even a link where to download on his website. All without ever once seeking permission. Accident or not, I'm pretty turned off at the possbility this could happen again, or to any other repainter or freeware developer. I was lucky and just happened to spot it but it did show that people are seeing green and rushing to get a peice of the action with little forethought just to make a buck.

Just been reading that Bill, it all struck me as a bit strange if I am honest, the guy claiming to be a newbie in response to questioning on why he is using things without permission. Sorry, but if you are admittedly calling yourself a newbie, I don't think you should be putting out scenarios at that price anyway, it leaves you wide open.

Credit where its due for having a go though.

[RSderek]

Interesting links Steve.
Found this snippet...

Quote:
the game itself isn't really that bad just the people behind it

ROFL x 10!

Aparently the 2 people chatting here were ripping each other apart in the 'good old days', Now they are best friends,
Forums can bring people together.


d

[gnash]

I don't think you can really include one-off costs for software and so on into the costs to make just one DLC, unless it's something that DLC and only that DLC needs. 3D modelling software and it's attached training are reusable resources with a fixed cost

Not sure on this , I'd certainly cost for yearly Adesk/Adobe subs/upgrades if I chose to produce . Then there's always new toys hardware or software that guys might like to buy from any profit . Don't see that anyone would treat production for RW differently from freelancing for anything else .

[styckx]

In an ironic twist to my "gold rush" situation post last night I stumbled across a thread of a "startup" from an out of no where guy selling American scenarios at $2.50 a pop. Not only is the price more than doubled that or almost double that of others (if you break them down per scenario cost), it required a repaint of mine to actually run the scenario he was selling for profit. It was even featured in the promotional video, and even a link where to download on his website. All without ever once seeking permission. Accident or not, I'm pretty turned off at the possbility this could happen again, or to any other repainter or freeware developer. I was lucky and just happened to spot it but it did show that people are seeing green and rushing to get a peice of the action with little forethought just to make a buck.

Just been reading that Bill, it all struck me as a bit strange if I am honest, the guy claiming to be a newbie in response to questioning on why he is using things without permission. Sorry, but if you are admittedly calling yourself a newbie, I don't think you should be putting out scenarios at that price anyway, it leaves you wide open.

Credit where its due for having a go though.

Oh I completely agree with you about it being strange. Very strange actually. My gut instinct tells me that guy isn't really new. It is over though. I respect both views on the pay/freeware "debate" but if you went to his site originally I (he used my real name crediting the repaint and linking to it) was the only freeware item required and it came off as if I was somehow involved in some way with this payware business. I have offered my time before, but to just randomly find that thread and site on my own accord was a bit bothersome.

[USRailFan]

In an ironic twist to my "gold rush" situation post last night I stumbled across a thread of a "startup" from an out of no where guy selling American scenarios at $2.50 a pop. Not only is the price more than doubled that or almost double that of others (if you break them down per scenario cost), it required a repaint of mine to actually run the scenario he was selling for profit. It was even featured in the promotional video, and even a link where to download on his website. All without ever once seeking permission. Accident or not, I'm pretty turned off at the possbility this could happen again, or to any other repainter or freeware developer. I was lucky and just happened to spot it but it did show that people are seeing green and rushing to get a peice of the action with little forethought just to make a buck.

Is this the thread on another forum started recently, or have I missed something? :/

[styckx]

Its on Trainsim, "RW route and scenario creation" and the thread "North American Scenario Paks".

[USRailFan]

Ah OK, it was a different thread (and forum) than the one I thought then...

[FoggyMorning]

Not sure if you're aware that the same thread is on RailworksAmerica Bill?

Steve

[AndiS]

I always had my reservations against payware, just because of this: people tend to go nuts when it is about money. But then again, they go nuts when it is about honour, too. So in a freeware-only world, people would fight over the honour (only), which can still be bad enough. But with money, it all gets this extra twist: a) you can buy beer for it (which you can't with honour/kudos/written thanks) and undersupply of beer has bad influence on the nervous system; and b) saying something bad that has potential financial results had a different flavour in law.

At the same time, I came to the conclusion that it is a normal thing to ask money for stuff you made and others want. So why not for virtual creations. And I said it above, it is mostly an optional complement to freeware.

But the worry about the monetary pressure under which some people might be (and which not just a joke about beer), and its sweeping into my little naive hobby dreams world, is certainly there.

[styckx]

Not sure if you're aware that the same thread is on RailworksAmerica Bill?

Steve

Ahahaha, yeah but Hawk removed my rather harsh post towards the guy. In Hawks defense I don't blame him for removing it. I was rather fuming when writing it and was a bit more harsh and let a 4 letter word drop also. It is just a dumb repaint but Ill rip every single thing offline before someone makes a dime for themsleves on my watch without my permission.