Railworks, Then and Now, The Community

[eyore]

The payware/freeware arguement continues to boil over from time to time, but I think the community has generally come to accept that payware is part of the Railworks experience and is here to stay.

Over the last few weeks I have been trying to build my first loco for Railworks and I have come to appreciate just how difficult it is to achieve the standards exhibited by the payware products and consequently, why most people seem to prefer to buy rather than build. The payware market has allowed the hobby to grow much faster than it possibly could with just freeware. Out of interest, ignore the re-skins and go and see how many original locos there are in the downloads section.

On the other side of the coin, however, I would not have achieved anything on my own loco without the support of the UKTS members. The quality of their free help and advice has been remarkable and represents, to me, what UKTS is about.

Going forward I think we should accept that this is not MSTS and payware is part of our hobby.

I do agree, however, with comments made by others regarding the lack of support for freeware modellers. For example, I made a dockside crane some months ago and it has nearly 2000 downloads, plus there's hardly a day goes by when I don't see it in the background of someone's screenshots. Yet, I have recieved no comments and only two people had the courtesy to ask if they could include it in their route. Don't misunderstand me, I get my enjoyment from building the model and watching the download count increase, but I would be less than human if I wasn't a little disappointed to see a payware model that hasn't even been released yet get 11 pages of comments, compared to the support I recieved.

So if I may quote an earlier post.

So, go find something free from the library here or elsewhere that stirs your emotions a little, come back here and tell people about it.

[nobkins]

UKTS is a fine place and ran fine, and really, if no one has noticed they loosened the reigns a lot and really are no where near as quick to yell, lock, and send a PM as in the past. The much more friendly and persuasive approach to moderating hasn't gone un-noticed.

We try

I felt quite justified in asking how the creator justified asking £5 for a handful of scenarios, while accepting others may not have an issue paying for that.

That would have been perfectly acceptable. However, as you have brought up your own post to illustrate an example of moderation you think was unjustified I hope you won't mind me using it as an example. Not picking on you Vern just explaining and offereing my view point of what went wrong with the AP19 thread.

This is actually what you said in your post on the AP19 thread (this the complete post as it was made - no edits or cuts):

£5.00 for six scenarios and you need a load of other payware to run them.

Sorry but this is micro payware culture gone mad.

Whatever happened to creating and sharing in the community spirit, not to mention openly using the forum on a freeware file site to advertise commercial wares?

Had you just said that you felt £5 was too expensive, then offerered constructive feedback on what you felt would make the pack something you would consider investing in then of course no problems. You may have intended to do that but that was not what you did.

I took from that post (as I think most others did) that you felt AP was making "micro payware" and that you feel it is wrong to use UKTS to advertise his content. Of course you are entitled to your opinion and this post does not break any rules. However, it was that post which ended in the thread getting heated and going off topic - which resulted in it getting locked.

This is why I said in an earlier post:

If I could make all members do just one thing then it would be the following:
If you can't make a positive comment then make darn sure that a negative one is polite, reasoned, understanding of other viewpoints and constructive. Otherwise keep quiet

If you had phrased your response differently and more in alignment with my request above then you and other members would probably still be enjoying healthy discussion on that thread. When it comes down to it.

You reap what you sow. Constructive feedback = interesting, healthy debate.

Finally....

Going forward I think we should accept that this is not MSTS and payware is part of our hobby.

Excellent accurate point. If you don't like or find fault with payware then constructive feedback might just get it changed and updated. Which is (I assume) actually what you want! If members just gripe and snitch then they might feel better but it is incredibly unlikely to result in a positive outcome (and often makes a headache for us moderators).

I would be less than human if I wasn't a little disappointed to see a payware model that hasn't even been released yet get 11 pages of comments, compared to the support I received

This again is a real shame. Freeware creators create for the fun of it. Seeing others use their creations is just what they want. However, a few more thank you's etc would not go amiss. I am very glad to be one of the "two" you mentioned Phil and you will find lots of cranes at the many docks on the TPR route. This is just one of many many free assets donated from UKTS and many other sites from all over the world towards the TPR project (a route that will be 100% free and ONLY uses free / default content).

Hope I have not got too preachy and I do stress once more Vern that I am merely using your post as an example of how something could have been done differently and then drawn conclusions as to how that might have affected the outcome to the benefit of yourself and others.

[albionrail]

I do agree, however, with comments made by others regarding the lack of support for freeware modellers. For example, I made a dockside crane some months ago and it has nearly 2000 downloads, plus there's hardly a day goes by when I don't see it in the background of someone's screenshots. Yet, I have recieved no comments and only two people had the courtesy to ask if they could include it in their route. Don't misunderstand me, I get my enjoyment from building the model and watching the download count increase, but I would be less than human if I wasn't a little disappointed to see a payware model that hasn't even been released yet get 11 pages of comments, compared to the support I recieved.

So if I may quote an earlier post.

So, go find something free from the library here or elsewhere that stirs your emotions a little, come back here and tell people about it.

Your post is definately food for thought Phil, I can imagine it would be dissapointing not to recieve more feedback and credit for producing an asset that no doubt took many hours of work. I am just making a start on content/asset creation and if nothing else I will gain a better understanding of the work that goes into these freeware items that unfortunately some people seem to take for granted.

Ed.

[bigvern]

Had you just said that you felt £5 was too expensive, then offerered constructive feedback on what you felt would make the pack something you would consider investing in then of course no problems. You may have intended to do that but that was not what you did.

The reason why I didn't offer a more "constructive" viewpoint was, in this case and in my view, it was clearcut. Charging for scenarios that use other parties' work and possibly - even after paying VAT and income tax on each sale - making more money than the original route authors get per unit sold on Steam, is morally and ethically wrong, unless there is a royalty deal with the original route/stock authors. The only change that would make me "buy" it, is if it was on sale for nowt! I will not pay for scenarios.

That's my view, I expressed it but also respected those who wish to do so. The big problem with UKTS recently, is that it has become increasingly difficult to state a view in the Railworks area, without being shouted down, or told it belongs on a blog not in a forum, i.e. no respect for the other's view. You also have to accept there are people posting from all walks of life, from the 40 year old trainspotters never had a girlfriend, to the guy who does a bit of trainsimming in between going down the pub and being tied up by the wife and made to walk on all fours with a rubber ball in his mouth... Maybe extreme examples but the point being how you post and how you view things is also dependant on your life experience (where's those leather straps ).

I still think getting payware discussion into its own separate area as I'm sure was done with MSTS might avoid some of the scraps, i.e. go there at your peril. However as regards "community", so long as Railworks continues down its road of payware being in the majority - it's not a community. It's a group of potential and actual customers who will hold strong and differing views on what they're purchasing and that's what ends up being discussed.

[crumplezone]

One thing to consider on the topic of feedback, thanks and comments in regards to freeware is that, beyond the intial thread and pm/emails to authors there hasn't been much facility to leave thanks, this has started to improve on UKtrainsim website due to the recent additions of comments on files and more recently the "like" system intergration with facebook but prior to this and the intial release of a freeware item the prolonged status of a thread tends to get buried under more recent topics.

On the note of Trainz and there forums, they are a larger commercial company so to a certain extent they have more leeway for heated topics and also even negative comments against them as a company, but in some light this could also be said that maybe the company doesn't have the facility or staff nessessary to moderate it all. The situation is different here on UKtrainsim as there is a team of moderators available which frequent the forum quite regularly and thanks to Nobkins posts alittle more insight into the process behind the scenes of what moderation entails here.

I'll agree and disagree that moderation can be over zealous here at times of heated discussion, but the end result is far worse if the levels of moderation were not in effect, I frequent another community for RTS games by Relic and they have equal to more heavier moderation than here and over the past 11 years it has remained like that and the levels of discussion and quality of discussions have been kept to a standard.

But there is another underlining problem which can crop up, which it does often in that the aspect that a negative post crops up and unfortunately a few will bandwagon onto that notion, this normally ends in a down spiril of the discussion and the report feature gets liberal use. In another sense this is the difficult task which the moderators will also have to face here, a moderator has to consider has the reporter of a specific post done this purely for spite? I'm sure there is situations where patterns and repeat uses by some users can be identified, so in a sense a moderator will be able to tell, but alot will also bend around this and that is the life of a online forum.

Some may disagree and some may agree with the many passionate topics which pop up, but the other sense is we, as a community need to nurture and encourage discussion aswell as construction critism and comments otherwise no improves would ever come out of anything, Its perfectly valid to posts our concerns which I think is anyones given right, but in acceptable levels.

My other point of observation would be for the community to be forgiving in the aspect of newer users to Railworks aswell as the whole DLC process, alot of us, I mean alot of us, have been around for awhile now and know the basics and accept the basics of the faults which can happen in Railworks, but new users won't know anything about this. There can be situations where a new user will post about a DLC, saying it doesn't work for them, naturally they is the helpful people who suggest verifying cache, changing setting for railworks aswell as troubleshooting but at the same time there will be those less helpful who just drop a comment for a snipe or in the internet term "lol, its a newbie", we should be forgiving to these newer people as they will spread word of mouth about Railworks and also buy DLC, in the end the more people who keep buying into Railworks and encourage others to come to Railworks the better it is for everyone, freeware, payware or inbetween.

Going back the topic on thanks to freeware, a method could be taken for example, a simple comment at the end of a download link, "Thanks for downloading this freeware release, if you have enjoyed it, please consider dropping a comment or thanks to let the author know of your experience." This, if supported by UKtrainsim for each download as a template or something in regards to the download page could allow for more feedback and in a sense is better and softer approach than saying "You have downloaded this, leave comments and feedback/rate me/give comments to encourage further releases". By this, the first option, maybe worded different would encourage more comments, for I believe if someone is forced to leave a comment, they won't, but if they are asked nicely and encouraged to leave there experience with no obligations then they are more likely to post a comment.

[Acorncomputer]

Thanks for creating freeware is always welcome.

Matt did add the comment facility on the library download page which does seem to get used and is a good way to let the creator know that you appreciate their work.

I am not sure exactly what James would do if he got a comment from each of the downloaders of his Central Route, it would take a long time to read them all. I am sure, however, that mass praise is not expected but whilst freeware is mainly created for the pleasure of the creator, there is always satisfaction that others are enjoying what you have done and that is the best incentive to carry on and do something else.

So whilst I have the opportunity I would like to thank all freeware creators on UKTS and other sites, all people that have thanked me for the work I have produced, the moderators, Matt and the UKTS team, my mother for being so understanding when I was young and all who know me

Thank you all

[Darpor]

to the guy who does a bit of trainsimming in between going down the pub and being tied up by the wife and made to walk on all fours with a rubber ball in his mouth...

Matt did add the comment facility on the library download page which does seem to get used and is a good way to let the creator know that you appreciate their work.

It is getting used as intended some of the time, but equally, people are using the comments section to ask for support when there is a perfectly good forum to do so. That can be hard to keep track of.

[Acorncomputer]

It is getting used as intended some of the time, but equally, people are using the comments section to ask for support when there is a perfectly good forum to do so. That can be hard to keep track of.

Yes, this is one of the problems that arises when lines of communication are fragmented. I know it is the modern way to have facebook, twitter and multiple other ways to get your message to people but unless your world revolves around constant checking of all of these places then a lot will get missed. The comment section is good but it must be made clear that it is for comments and not requests for action.

(I checked my mobile phone the other day and see that the last text I got was in January. Despite this, I still seem to communicate with other people perfectly well )

[nobkins]

Charging for scenarios that use other parties' work and possibly - even after paying VAT and income tax on each sale - making more money than the original route authors get per unit sold on Steam, is morally and ethically wrong,

You have a view and you respect other peoples views that is all fine. But.... what do you think is going to happen when you say someone is being imoral and unethical. You may get a reasoned debate, you will certainly get an "interesting" discussion but you are likely to trigger a flame fest.

If you said that in the pub to someone face to face then you mannerisms, facial expressions etc etc give a lot of additional input as to what you actually mean. You can't do that in a post on the forum. If someone was to say that a £3 donation for an unrestricted copy of RWDecal is "morally and ethically wrong" then I would take offence and I would be upset. That would surely be the obvious outcome that you must be able to predict before making the post and I am afraid that using such strong language as "morally and ethically wrong" is uncalled for and does not benefit anyone.

I assume you also have some substantiated evidence of the overheads and costs incurred via steam and by AP. If you have made suppositions / guessed what these costs are then I am afraid that using such strong language is unacceptable. Even if you have this hard evidence it would not be reasonable for you to post such sensitive company information on a public forum so backing up your accusation of the author being "morally and ethically wrong" is impossible.

But... above all. What is the positive outcome you are hoping to get by using such strong language which will obviosuly cause offence. At best you will get a "thank you for your thoughts". The likely outcome and highly predictable outcome is a heated debate or flame war. Maybe if you did feel part of the community instead of a "group of potential and actual customers" then you might take more care about how you write down your views. Using a little tact never did any harm

The only reason why I have not removed your accusation of AP being "morally and ethically wrong" is because I am involved in the discussion (you made the accusation in response to a post I made) and because I think AP is capable of taking criticism with such harsh language on the chin.

I don't want to get bogged down with a discussion specifically about you Vern or derail this interesting and productive thread. If you want to take this up by PM then that is now the best place to do so. I am sure though that you could have guessed the response you would get by using even stronger language than I had originally highlighted to you. I am not asking members to be clairvoyant but if a post has an obvious outcome what do you expect.

[RSderek]

I'm not sure why anyone should worry about going to any section of this forum 'at their peril'.
Just because something is payware does not mean that good manners and respect should not be maintained.

regards

Derek

[nobkins]

I'm not sure why anyone should worry about going to any section of this forum 'at their peril'.
Just because something is payware does not mean that good manners and respect should not be maintained.

regards

Derek

Exactly. This IS a community of ALL things train sim. Somethings feature more than others but they are ALL part of the same community.

[albionrail]

to the guy who does a bit of trainsimming in between going down the pub and being tied up by the wife and made to walk on all fours with a rubber ball in his mouth...

Mweh, Look I had too many Stella Artois that night mate.

[bigvern]

The jolly green pen strikes again...

Anyway, one further and hopefully final thought.

Part of the problem with UKTS and RW discussion in particular, is that every discussion now seems to turn into a court case, with what people have said being pulled apart or subject to cross examination, by the barrack room lawyers.

There are no absolute rights or wrongs, everyone has their view and trying to dissect that or analyse it Law & Order style is far from being community spirited but that's what I see happening and not just on threads where I decide to participate.

With specific regard to RW Decal I consider a £3 donation for a utility which will also function under freeware licence with some limitations an example of micro-payware at its absolute best and excellent value for money. £5.00 for six scenarios is not (IMHO) and no amount of cajoling, threats or any other co-ercion will ever make me think otherwise.

[USRailFan]

You DO usually get a number of repaints with the scenario packs too though (yes, I am aware that those can be freely downloaded anyway and therefore probably strictly don't count)

[Darpor]

There is probably no right and wrong as to what should be charged for scenario packs really, if the market is there and customers wish to buy them, I don't see no harm really. Whether you agree or not is personal choice and if you don't agree, you vote with your wallet, it's that simple.

However, one interesting thing has been brought to light, in particular, what is acceptable per unit. Many have expressed that £0.83 per scenario is an acceptable figure and looking at it in pence, it doesn't seem a great deal. The problem is though, when a route or rolling stock is released, the prices suddenly become unacceptable, the arguments start and many complain.

Let's just say the following isn't cut and dried but if one thing is acceptable, why isn't another extreme value for money? So, lets compare.

As an example, an item of rolling stock takes 400 hours to build (could be more could be less, but for comparison purposes, lets be honest, there is much more involved in creating it. The author then releases piece of rolling stock for £13.99 which works out at a staggering 3.5p (ish) an hour. Doesn't this represent an amazing amount of money for the work involved?

Take route building. Does a mile of a route take more effort than a scenario? I would like to think so, therefore an 85 mile route for £19.99 works out at roughly 23.5p per mile. Is that not fantastic value for money?

Of course the above is not a direct comparison as the three methods of sale are completely and utterly different. Hopefully it does try to put into context what some people regard as value for money though.

Just to add, Maths was never my strong point whilst in full time education. If the above figures are wrong, blame the system.