Stuttering and other issues (and my first thoughts)

[GenesisMan]

There are now in excess of 20 people in the RS.com development team and I think it is pretty certain that they are not all sitting around twiddling their thumbs.

They are not twiddling their thumbs, they are creating new add-ons asked and not fixing and improving the core.

They may not all be working on RailWorks, but I feel sure that much of what people wish for will eventually become reality.

Then, how many are creating new add-ons vs those working on the core of the program as requested by user like me writing to support@railsimulator.com

Patience is all that is required.

After asking and asking and asking the same things, we run out of patience.

[166Driver]

Hmm, I was really hoping that there was a way to improve the fluidity of the game, but if there isn't, then I will have to ditch RW completely. I am disappointed that it has similar glitches to MSTS. Two other problems today, one was I loaded a scenario and the track and cab graphics were vibrating all over the screen, and had to reload. That happened twice on two different scenarios. The second was I was driving a 47 with MK1s, and was overtaken by an identical unit, unfortunately the overtaking 47 wasn't smooth and was shaking back and forth on the track, so I braked to let it disappear into the distance instead of putting up with it. On Oxford-Paddington overtaking trains were smooth. I've also noticed having to drop to the first power notch to cruise at speed, and also on the 166 dropping to notch 6 over 40mph and it won't accelerate. I'm not going to invest in any payware until RW improves. I made the mistake in MSTS and bought many payware routes, some of which were only used once because I couldn't tolerate the core simulation.

In OpenBve I sometimes cover the speedometer and can drive the train accurately by just looking out of the window, as it really conveys illusion of speed. Couldn't do that in MSTS, and can't do it in RW either. I'm going to try dropping the resolution and if that doesn't improve the stuttering then I'll give up. Glad it was only £25 and not £50 like MSTS. Hopefully more people will discover OpenBVE, and it's capabilities, and will develop for it. I can believe that a freeware program developed by one person can be better than a commercial production by 20 people.

[166Driver]

Well, I did a little experimentation. I dropped the resolution twice, first to 1600 × 900, then 1280 × 720. I was getting nearly 100fps in some places, though it was still stuttering just as bad as before and made everything looked jagged, so there was no benefit and I put it back to 1920x1080. I assume others are having the same issue?

:bad-words:

Well that's just about it for me, unless RW is updated, which I really, really doubt. Back to BVE, and whatever new simulators are coming out. Obviously the 166 and Oxford-Paddington sold the game to me in the end, but it's nearly undriveable due to the stuttering. Could have done a lot more with the money, and even if I did purchase a much more powerful PC than I did, clearly RW isn't going to run smoothly.

[smarty2]

Well its horses for courses, I have OBVE and enjoy what it can do but I enjoy RW's similarly; there are a lot of things both sims can and cannot do, I used to have MSTS installed but its been off my machine for over 4 years, and I couldn't go back to it now (have tried) couldn't get into trainz however good the driving experience was, thing is I am trying to say is keep it, and so many of the problems with RW's seem to disappear when you are involved in a good scenario or making one, yes frustrations come but they also go when you get it right, and it does look gorgeous.

[ihavenonamenoreallyidont]

The second was I was driving a 47 with MK1s, and was overtaken by an identical unit, unfortunately the overtaking 47 wasn't smooth and was shaking back and forth on the track, so I braked to let it disappear into the distance instead of putting up with it. .

Rubber banding.

Try searching on that theme, plenty of references to it. And you're right; changing the resolution will have no effect. It seems it might be something to do with the physics engine working on different timings for the AI compared to the player's train although you'll also notice it if you pan the camera to side-on and watch your own train go past. RSC appears to be aware of the problem but has said little on the subject. The Afflicted (usually people with better set-ups, as far as I can tell) are hoping the major update coming in the next couple of months will help.

[bigvern]

Thanks for the tip about OMSI Jason, I'm really looking forward to seeing what they've done but have chosen to stick with ordering the boxed version from Aerosoft.

Back on topic, after posting my previous missive I fired up RW and resumed my drive with the TEM2 - and very enjoyable too (apart from the expected sound drop out and occasional stuttering). Innovation (I can see that becoming my buzz word for 2011) isn't just about major things, it's the little items too. One where RSC got it right is the addition of scenario specific scenery - for example the burning house in one of the Castlerock scenarios. However they need to build on that, for example making events random so each time you replay the scenario things happen differently maybe even the creator doesn't know exactly what's going to happen. For manual firing, make things more challenging by zoning the firebox (I thnk Steam Express did this) so you're not just shovelling coal willy nilly but have to think about the shape and density of the fire. Back to randomisation, how about a run with "bad" coal, which if you read old steam drivers' memoirs happened quite regularly, the fire being covered with clinker and quite often a fresh engine required.

I already touched on diesels and how running the ammeter frequently into the yellow or red in TD3 could eventually result in the loco failure. How about something as basic as overload protection/trip or for that matter overspeed trips. (Didn't MSTS have the latter).

To me they are all little details that make a train driving simulation interesting, rather than a plastic HUD or nonsense career achievements (Petrol-Head, hello... internal combustion traction units run on diesel).

[Merlin75]

I do not know much about the inner workings of Railworks but just how much more DLC is the old game engine that runs it going to take before it gives up. It seems to have the same problem that FSX had more being added to a old core programe and in the end it could not handle it. I understand that RSC need to sell DLC to keep going and I hope they can work out all the problems with the core game but if they don't then they will in the end run the risk of unhappy customers putting up unhappy reviews and that could start costing them sales. Railworks has alot going for it and RSC seem to have big plans it seems that the core game just can't keep up with the plans. I had spent alot of money on this game and at the moment can't play it as it keeps say SBHH everytime despite working before the last update. I'll love to come back to the game but I want a simulator that works and is not a lottery as to is it going to work or not afher the next update.

[Acorncomputer]

I am not sure that RailWorks will ever give up due to too much DLC.

Very big routes can take a long time to load but once loaded there seems to be no particular problem due to the size other than localised problems that all routes suffer if overloaded with assets in small areas.

There are often comparisons made with other simulations and whilst it does seem that RW suffers more than most from stuttering and low frame rates, there can be an enormous amount of detail included that you simply would not get in other games and thus there is a special problem that RS.com have to deal with.

Ultimately the choice is with the user as to whether they like using RailWorks or not and that may include a resignation to acceptance of the shortcomings. I believe there are significant improvements on the way and not just commercial gimmicks, and there is always the possibility of a completely new version of RailWorks in the distant future if RS.com find that they cannot overcome some of the basic problems with this program which they successfully saved from possible extinction and otherwise would have left us with little alternative choice.

[166Driver]

The stuttering is even worse on the other routes! I haven't fired up BVE since I got RS, too scared to see the difference yet! OpenBVE might not have the massive graphics options, but some trains still have 3D cabs, 3D interiors etc, but takes seconds to install, and load, and runs at over 60fps with a better simulation. My main interest is driving the trains, not looking at them otherwise RW would have been ideal, it does look quite good.

I'm also interested in this "Metro sim" Vern mentioned on the last page but can't find any reference to it on UKTS.

[crumplezone]

I'm not going to comment on RS.com's commitment or there goals for Railworks in the future or the DLCs they bring out as I'm fine with that as it is.

In regards to performance, Railworks isn't obviously the best preforming Simulator which most of us can agree on and in some cases it can have quite a few hickups, it is a somewhat borrowed code base stretching back many years and one can see that with the inclusion of Kuju related files and so forth. The underlining issue, and not trying to be so negative is that while Railworks is a pretty good simulator it is crippled on old technology in some aspects, for example it does ultilise multiple cores and physisX isn't on the graphics card which is technically where it should be nowadays. Before anyone mentions, yes those are to be included in a revamp later this year which doesn't particularly bother me in regards to those problems, it'll get there.

You see the thing is, without those added features performance hits and rubber banding is bound to happen since there is alot more focus being put on the CPU, RAM and HDs. With this in mind Railworks is probably very much still a DirectX9 program which in some senses is a blessing a curse and the same time, while it can cater for a larger audience of older computers and still run to a decent standard it will lose out added levels of anti alias AF and other associated graphic boosts, also as noted in the above PhysisX isn't on the graphics card, it still remains to be calculated via the computer to they update the core engine to run PhysisX on the GPU and have railworks ultilise more cores.

Sound limitations are also present, Railworks only ultilises so many sound channels before it starts to cut out sounds, again this is probably a factor with having both PhysisX and sound processing all run through the computer, when the core change comes in there is a distinct possiblity that sound issues maybe resolved but don't quote me on that .

The thing is though, while there is a few negatives(or alot as some people seem to believe), Railworks does run fairly well within all the limitations imposed upon itself via using the older core I would also say there is certainly a great deal of entertainment to be had from Railworks once you got everything running, there is alot of DLC and alot of Freeware now available which 2years ago wasn't there and it does make Railworks worth it as a decent train simulator.

I think one thing which could be worked on, which probably would vastly improve Railworks in its current guise and in the future with its update is optimisation in regards to assets. Better loading of them and how they are stored and compressed could probably improve performance by quite a decent degree, for example, with all the assets I have + DLC I'm rocking a 35+ gigs of assets. While its nice to have all these routes and motive power that 35gig of asset folder alone does make me question on just how much is optimised and could be compressed or condensed. Its probably one of the big things which could change Railworks a great deal aswell. Strangely enough however, once you get into a large route (which loads for awhile), if you complete a scenario then wish to run a different one the route seems to load faster. Weather this is because its been in the memory just prior or Railworks has loaded the assets I'm not sure but optimisation in this area could probably solve alot.

While there are bad and good points of Railworks, it shouldn't deter from a actually pretty good simulator which, while it does have flaws in certain areas is probably one of the better on the market at this time and I would also note that RS.com does make the effort to keep us informed about new changes, new DLC and even post here on UKtrainsim, which alot of developers for other games wouldn't do. We have to also keep in mind, while RS team is bigger, its still a smaller company making its mark and in that process is learning what they can and cannot do, if you look back since Railworks was release there has been alot of changes and alot of new content which make it alot more appealing.

Maybe I've rambled abit and been abit inconsistant but that is how I see Railworks at this time, its getting there and there is changes to come, its just a matter of waiting, if we have to suffering abit of DLC releases so funds and the likes can be aqquired to develop better performance and what not then so be it, I'd also say that I'm willing to wait for it, as long as the developers keep community here, their site and facebook page and taking input without being snarky then its ok in my books, alot of other developers of games wouldn't keep that up.

[bigvern]

Metro Simulator...

http://www.dipten.com/metrosimulator/

Matt's original report seems to have dropped off the front page.

[jimmyshand]

Interesting thread this one, the most interesting discussion in a long time on here. RW is at an age where it's up for review and I think this discussion is very appropriate and very interesting given that there are many newbies now onboard following all the offers and the seasoned vets are now well into the twilight years of RW!

For my tuppence worth, I think that graphically RW is excellent and this attribute is what has kept it alive and arguably the market leader? However that said the graphics are about the only thing that is excellent. The physics are pratically non-existant, the default sounds are terrible, the simulation of systems and procedures are minimal and the game is unstable and prone to crashing/bugs. It is still the only game I play these days but the shortcomings are really starting to tell now and to be honest boredom is setting in. Because RW does not offer much in the way of systems simulation, boredom is a big problem in this game. As a seasoned flight sim user I always found that 90% of my time on the sim and enjoyment came from 'groundwork'. Prepping the engines, programming the avionics, communication with ATC, configuring for flight, taxi and take-off procedures etc etc. I revelled in the fact I had total control over everything from seatbelt signs to engine throttles! Once in the air it becomes incredibly boring and accelerate time was always used!! The RW experience is the complete opposite with virtually no time spent doing anything system related and 99% just boring airtime! Now obviously train operation is nowhere near as complex or exciting as flight but there is still plenty that could be done on the systems side to make it more engaging. Breakdowns, faults, pre-start engine preps, why not have another view that simulates some of the engine room aspects?, brake tests, breaker trips, logbooks, comms systems, interactive guard etc etc.

At the moment RW depends on a flood of shiny new eye candy to keep the customers happy. The core customer base are UK train enthusiasts but since Christmas we've had nothing but a revamped front end 101 and a few re-skinned 86's. It seems RSC are going through a period of working mainly on US & European products which is great for them but bad for the core UK users. I know that there are several goodies on the horizon but they've been a long time coming and there is a danger of RW usage drying up in the interim. To keep this sim alive and kicking there either needs to be a constant stream of new content to keep peoples minds off the defficiencies or else the core issues need to be addressed to keep people using what they've already got. My time on the sim has tailed off to an all time low since the original release of Rail Simulator. Barely an hour a week I would say at the moment when a while back I was logging 2 hours a day!!

As bigvern or someone else said earlier, RW is in danger of being left standing if some other company come in and combine the best of the rest with the best of RW. The market is crying out for it although it seems clear that RS.com are hedging all their bets on pumping out new content rather than addressing any issues. This is a risky strategy though because they have such a wide audience in many different countries that to keep everyone topped up with relevant new content is like trying to keep 1,000 plates spinning on sticks!!

[ightenhill]

I'm waiting with baited breath and everything crossed too see just what the 57 update and 156 from Oovee bring us in terms of proper systems simulation.

[ckmemphis]

For my tuppence worth, I think that graphically RW is excellent and this attribute is what has kept it alive and arguably the market leader? However that said the graphics are about the only thing that is excellent. The physics are pratically non-existant, the default sounds are terrible, the simulation of systems and procedures are minimal and the game is unstable and prone to crashing/bugs. It is still the only game I play these days but the shortcomings are really starting to tell now and to be honest boredom is setting in. Because RW does not offer much in the way of systems simulation, boredom is a big problem in this game. As a seasoned flight sim user I always found that 90% of my time on the sim and enjoyment came from 'groundwork'. Prepping the engines, programming the avionics, communication with ATC, configuring for flight, taxi and take-off procedures etc etc. I revelled in the fact I had total control over everything from seatbelt signs to engine throttles! Once in the air it becomes incredibly boring and accelerate time was always used!! The RW experience is the complete opposite with virtually no time spent doing anything system related and 99% just boring airtime! Now obviously train operation is nowhere near as complex or exciting as flight but there is still plenty that could be done on the systems side to make it more engaging. Breakdowns, faults, pre-start engine preps, why not have another view that simulates some of the engine room aspects?, brake tests, breaker trips, logbooks, comms systems, interactive guard etc etc.

Now this is where I think the simulation should be heading. Yes, there are many other issues to overcome, core fixes that are long overdue, but in my opinion, we need to stop, stand back and look at the bigger picture. This is a simulation we are dealing with. Simulation is the imitation of some real thing, state of affairs, or process. Now going to the highlighted text above, trains can be a handful to setup and prepare for service. A driver doesn't just get into a set, turn the master key and away he goes. There are systems that need to be prepared, things need to be checked and tested. What about having a case when you are required to prepare a freight train for service, do running brake tests, create the jobcard for the driver, make sure the loco is ready in terms of brake pressures, engine conditions, service records, and the works. It can be a long process, especially if you add in things like faulty brakes, faulty circuit breakers, dead traction motors, the list goes on and on. That should be the focus of where RW should be heading in the future, as that is all part of what we are trying to simulate. Too often we see creators doing scenarios that involve restricted running, train rescues and the likes, so surely it could mean that railway life if what is needed, instead of eye candy DLC... Like the highlighted text above states, when driving down the WCML-N, at 125mph, there's nothing much to it. That's the 99% of boredom that sets in. Imagine adding in the signaller saying there is a underpowered freight train at Beatock Summit, or be aware of maintainance around Carstairs juction, restricted running alerts while on the go. What about the processes the driver has to do when he boards the train 15minutes before departure. All those system tests?

I don't have a problem with DLC coming onto the available list in Steam, I'm just concerned that if RSC decides to revamp the entire platform of RW due to recurring problems, what happens to all those DLC? Some of them are not from RSC, and may leave them redundant. That is the worse case scenario, but it is a possibility and should it happen, I think there will be madness across the entire RW land as most of us have so many items, half might be left out it the cold...

I'll wait for the changes, as I don't have time every single day to play on RW, family duties to fulfill, but those days I do play, I find enjoyment, even if it means playing with one eye closed so that I don't see the faults....

[johnmckenzie]

I read this thread and I can't help but throw in my tuppence-worth.

I love RW. I love what it does.

Tackling the stuttering is the one big improvement I would make. And that's all. Otherwise, for me, I can think of a few small improvements only.

Oh, DLC could also be a touch cheaper. AI could be more I than A (but even at that it still works fine for my purposes)

Otherwise, I am totally happy.