Atomic Systems

I think there's an attitude of "I'm right, you're wrong, end of story" on the forums here, which is a bit annoying. Also I see some strait away start complaining without even saying there is anything good with the route/loco/carriage. I think there needs to be more posts like "I really like the route, and the only big fault I could find is that some areas aren't all the way finished." rather than, "Your route stinks I'm uninstalling it and I want my money back. (With a few of these in there)"

Darpor wrote:
Take the Class 86 that came with the WCML and for many, it wouldn't budge. It was already stated that you needed to use expert controls and a possible cache verification, but straight away, you have guys asking for their money back, saying it is the last thing they are buying etc etc with no thanks for the actual route itself, which is what many were wanting in the first place. At times like that, I feel for someone like Keith Ross, who has spent considerable time and effort to provide the route, only for people to be put off by a creation that is none of his doing.

Whilst i agree with you to a certain degree Dapor about the RSC bashing/payware bashing you have to remember that alot of people who come on to these forums may not be very computer literate and/or may have little experience with Railworks and its quirks and bugs. Certainly in the UK anyway the "consumer person" as I would class them or in the case of Railworks someone who just wants to load up Railworks and drive a train, they may not be aware of how to get round the bugs and quirks and come on here to get help (and yes your right complain too). They just expect the Class 86 they have just purchased to work in easy mode like almost all the other locomotives.

To put it into another perspective another example is the cant work the VCR syndrome. How many people have you seen trying to programme the timer on their VCR in the past (ie parents aunts uncles etc) and failing miserably to do so because they have failed to read the manual which is still sitting next to them still sealed in its clear plastic packaging? Its just a fact of life that people do not read the manual! They then of course are straight on the telephone to their sons, daughters, neices and nephews to summon them round to show them how to work it (and then promptly forget what you showed them after 5 minutes ) I would guess 3/4 of the RSC's customers would come under the "consumer customer", they are not walking Railworks knowledge base route building experts such as your self Dapor (meant as a compliment BTW as I look forward to the release of your work like many others). I think RSC understand this which is why they help as much as they can and still come on here and listen to what people have to say even though sometimes they get a slagging off. They of course lap up all the praise that is given too, take the bad with the good.

I know lots about computers, I'm a Bachealor of Software Engineering and have been addicted to computer games for over 20 years and yet when I bought railworks not only was I in awe of what it had to offer I was also bewildered too with the complexity of what is a complex peice of simulation software (or game to the consumer). I was out of my league. The range of addons and the differences between them and differences in ways to install them (RWP's RPK's Setup exe's or direct copy into the railworks folder) and on top of reskins, scenario rolling stock requirements and all the other issues can be mind boggling, its not suprised that people get frustrated. I for instance only found out today that you can actually speed up time in Railworks despite owning it for months .

RSC is to be commended on how good Railworks is and the level of service they provide but on the other hand it has to be said I have noticed that a lot of things are undocumented and also they can be prone to leaving themselves wide open to criticism by making mistakes that break things which could have been easily avoided. Forgetting to add bonus packs (steam class 56) or using the wrong rolling stock in scenarios (Ovee HST buffer pack WCML) or forgetting about the shadows under the Fag packet HST reskin (check shadows are present tick box now added to Derek's test case list) are some the latest.

I do think you are justified though in making this post, at the other end of the scale there are seasoned railworks and UKTS forum veterens who can maybe be said to moan or bash RSC and others quite alot, they know what the nature of the beast is and they should maybe count to 100 before posting up a rant or three. I for one after my customer service rant in another thread have firmly put my soap box under lock and key and have vowed not to bring it out again till christmas. Afterall people tend to after a while not listen to constant moaners. But just remember those who are moaning about the moaners, the moaning Railworks veteran is the bread and butter of RSC and the other payware producers. Having spent what, £200-£300? I think they are entitled to expect high standards as this is a lot of money for software and I think, s you have rightly said RSC, payware DLC providers and the community can humour them a little, providing they dont go over the top. At the end of the day despite all the moaning we all know that everyone loves Railworks and the work RSC and all the others do anyway and will continue to snap up all the payware they can the day its released.

Just my thoughts on the matter. . . . *** Bump *** (that was me falling off the fence after sitting on it too long typing up my mini novel )

Malc

msmith4000 wrote:

Darpor wrote:
Take the Class 86 that came with the WCML and for many, it wouldn't budge. It was already stated that you needed to use expert controls and a possible cache verification, but straight away, you have guys asking for their money back, saying it is the last thing they are buying etc etc with no thanks for the actual route itself, which is what many were wanting in the first place. At times like that, I feel for someone like Keith Ross, who has spent considerable time and effort to provide the route, only for people to be put off by a creation that is none of his doing.

Whilst i agree with you to a certain degree Dapor about the RSC bashing/payware bashing you have to remember that alot of people who come on to these forums may not be very computer literate and/or may have little experience with Railworks and its quirks and bugs. Certainly in the UK anyway the "consumer person" as I would class them or in the case of Railworks someone who just wants to load up Railworks and drive a train, they may not be aware of how to get round the bugs and quirks and come on here to get help (and yes your right complain too). They just expect the Class 86 they have just purchased to work in easy mode like almost all the other locomotives.

Malc

The underlined bit

Absolutely correct .. and the fact that it was necessary to use " expert mode " in all scenarios should have appeared in the official documentation and advertising , sadly it did not , and unhappy consumers were a tad miffed .

.... ... .. .

Hi Guys

Nothing wrong with critisism, its the motives behind and the way it is put across it that are the real issue.

Find me one single post in these boards by some one actively involved in developing that critisise products by others ........

Sure point out things that are clearly defined as being questionable... but remember you are not buying a real loco, you are buying the developers interpretation of that loco\whatever, and whether payware or freeware you are still getting an interpretation.

Generally customers will learn which vendors produce interpretations (goods) that are acceptable to them in terms of price and quality.

A few insist on trying to gain kudos and demonstrate their own superior knowledge ( which is never used for anyhting constructive I might add) by saying this and that not correct...... and then go on to change a few params in the files and say just how much better they are.
Instead of hacking someone elses work , try getting a blank blueprint and starting from scratch.

Sorry but you want it your way .. you build it your way......... me I want it my way and build it my way, if you like it fine ... if not also fine.

All about point scoring I'm afraid.. and therefore totally without value to either vendors , customers or the comunity in general

Sly

msmith4000 wrote:I for instance only found out today that you can actually speed up time in Railworks despite owning it for months .

Wait, what? You can?

I agree with both sides..

Without doubt there are certain people on this forum who simply post to snipe and its recently got beyond childish, its simply become pathetic and is starting to make this forum look rather like another one..

However constructive criticsm is welcome and more to the point I would say is actually needed (as pointed out for a start even reviews are somewhat lacking, perhaps a new "user reviews " section is needed with so much payware).. When its done correctly its valuable and useful..

However there is a method thats already in existance for complaining about in game issues.. What we're not seeing though is much change on the wiki that seems to aknowledge these complaints RSC need to address that in my opinion. It has not been changed since April yet the core has been updated since then..They also need to fix the way that Steam is being misused in the news/updates section for the core and each piece of DLC.. Its becoming hard to keep track of whats been done/updated/fixed and what has not.. As far as I know other than somone on the forum finally checking the exe there's no real confirmation anywhere that the 4gb fix has been applied in the last notes for example and Im less Im missing something I cant find any logic in the news section about when a piece of DLC has been updated, sometimes its mentioned, sometimes not regardless of if I have it installed or not.. This is highly confusing especially when the dev has the product released in multiple sources..

ihavenonamenoreallyidont wrote:

msmith4000 wrote:I for instance only found out today that you can actually speed up time in Railworks despite owning it for months .

Wait, what? You can?

In the front end wrapper, go to the 'settings' tab and select the tick-box marked "EnableAsyncKeys". Then start the game as normal. Once in game, then you can vary the game speed by pressing Ctrl + SHIFT + 1 up to 5, where 1 is real-time and 5 is supersonic. Brilliant for us scenario creators, but bear in mind that water/fuel consumption does not speed up with the game.

Paul

Thanks for that tip/ explanation Paul. More info for the fading grey matter
Phill

Sly401 wrote:
Sorry but you want it your way .. you build it your way......... me I want it my way and build it my way, if you like it fine ... if not also fine.

Sly

I've been seeing both sides of the coin here but Sly, I'm sorry but I have to say that statement is pretty shocking mate. When you are selling a product in any industry you have to be open to customers needs and requirements no matter how outlandish and unreasonable they may seem. The customer is always right, and on the rare occasions they are not then they still have to be treated as though they are!! I've never in all my time and in my varied career come across a Vendor who says "it's my way or the highway".

Judging by these forums every single Railworker has different tastes, different requirements and different expectations from the sim. Some love to sit by the trackside watching the models drive by, some like to drive from the cab in pure simulation mode, some do a bit of both, others like to build and craft routes and scenarios, some like steam, some like diesel, some insist on accurate sounds, some aren't too bothered, some rivet count, some aren't too fussed on detail, some like free-roam, others like career-mode, some insist on photo-real cabs, some couldn't care less, some are computer whizz-kids and can tweak and adapt, some can just about switch the PC on. The list is endless.

For those reasons above and more, we have a huge spectrum of different characters and users that inhabit this forum and I think that's what makes it great. The newest beginner can communicate with the greatest technical minds in the sim and you can nearly always find a solution to any problems you are having, quickly. That said though because of the variety of forum users there is always going to be variety and sometimes conflict of opinions.
If someone has a rant, instead of blowing steam and typing out heated responses in defence, try just having a quiet laugh about it!! Sometimes I do, because usually the rant is over something that most users can relate to and understand and usually the source of the rant eventually gets resolved anyway. I've yet to see a pointless rant on here, every time someone has 'gone off on one' then I've always been able to understand why!!

Also critisism of payware products is not negative, it's actually free, impartial, uncensored customer research!! If you know that masses of users love or hate a particular thing then it shows what has to be done in future products which will then result in happy customers and more money for the developer/creator. It's a win-win situation.

Hi,
I find that I am in agreement with Mike and Vern here. Being constructive in criticism is essential for products to progress and be improved. We also need to be honest about a product so people can make an informed decision about buying that product. Saying a product is brilliant when it is obviously not is being dishonest to the customer and the maker. Also I have witnessed some comments on discussions recently that in my opinion and interpretation are veiled threats. All companies that charge for services or goods need to be able to cope with comments both positive and negative. For Freeware I believe this is slightly different but Freeware developers must also understand that people will want to make comments on their work.
To give an example of what I expect after paying for a product I will use the recent Class 86. After struggling for some time to drive it I was having problems. On looking for a solution I found that a mistake had been made in a certain file that was causing a problem. The impression I got was that this file would be corrected when there was time, after other things had been done. Being fairly computer literate and with the help of Mike's RW Tools I made the correction in about 10 minutes following the excellent instructions in Andy's Topic. I now find the Class 86 easy to drive. The point I am trying to make is as follows. I should not have to edit and alter files in a product I have paid for to get it to work correctly. If I can correct the mistake myself in 10 minutes. I would expect a fix to be issued by at least the next day. This has happened with other Payware I have purchased. In fact some developers have produced fixes the same day a fault has been discovered. If RSC have already corrected the afore mentioned file apologies are due. I have seen no mention to assure me that this file has been fixed so far however. For those who remember the case of the Jumping Hoppers in Rail Simulator. RSDL as they where known then issued a fix as a written Topic by RSAdam and the file altered at the next update. If it is not possible to issue a fix of 1 File due to limitations or due to the way that Steam works with updates then this would be a perfectly good reason that I would understand. We have not been informed as such.
People get understandably annoyed when something they have paid for does not work as expected, however this does not excuse using questionable language or saying this whole product is no good. I have found that if customer service is good and said customers are kept well informed then people will not get angry or express concerns in public.
Kind regards James.

Hi,
RS.com have no issues with feedback of any kind, and if something does not work as advertised then they are certainly free to comment how they wish within the guidelines imposed by UKTS.
However, RS.com do not do support RWs here or on any other forum. If you want to get something addressed email support.
I will of course inform folks here if I can and have time, but I am here because I am a paid up member and I am free to do so, I am no different to any other user on these boards.
I will offer help/guidence/opinions etc if I have time/know the answer/like the person or for any other number of reasons.
I am more likely to help someone here who is nice than not nice, thats life.
Payware guys all have their own channels for support, and I guess they are more likely to respond there than on a forum where threads twist and turn like a twisty turny thing.

As Aretha Franklin would say...

It's all down to respect, treat how you wish to be treated.

best regards

Derek

bigphill2 wrote:Thanks for that tip/ explanation Paul. More info for the fading grey matter
Phill

The problem I have now is more new info in, more old info out

jimmyshand wrote:
I've been seeing both sides of the coin here but Sly, I'm sorry but I have to say that statement is pretty shocking mate. When you are selling a product in any industry you have to be open to customers needs and requirements no matter how outlandish and unreasonable they may seem. The customer is always right, and on the rare occasions they are not then they still have to be treated as though they are!! I've never in all my time and in my varied career come across a Vendor who says "it's my way or the highway".

Hi Jimmy, well I guess there is a first time for everything

The reason is simple, too many people in the past on these and other forums have done nothing but try to score points as outlined above.. so now I do it my way ..
always pleased to hear facts but quite honestly mostly its nothing more than opinions........ sorry to say there are very few of these posters whose opinion I value.

Sly.

jimmyshand wrote: Also critisism of payware products is not negative, it's actually free, impartial, uncensored customer research!! If you know that masses of users love or hate a particular thing then it shows what has to be done in future products which will then result in happy customers and more money for the developer/creator. It's a win-win situation.

Certainly agree with this. I'm always interested in hearing how people would like any of my products to improve.

phat2003uk wrote:

jimmyshand wrote: Also critisism of payware products is not negative, it's actually free, impartial, uncensored customer research!! If you know that masses of users love or hate a particular thing then it shows what has to be done in future products which will then result in happy customers and more money for the developer/creator. It's a win-win situation.

Certainly agree with this. I'm always interested in hearing how people would like any of my products to improve.

Thirded, Al though it doesn't seem it but I do the occasional bit of graphic work and get paid for it. As a result I'm always keen on how I can improve things or where something could be changed. My stance on most things is feedback welcomed to see how things can be milked to get the best out of it in other peoples opinions.