IHH Britannia!

[class313]

The fronts are completely different as well, look: http://www.docbrown.info/docspics/nymr/ ... 277226.jpg- 7100 Duke of Gloucester
http://www.modelrailforum.com/reviews/H ... 13-690.jpg- 70013- Oliver Cromwell

[transadelaide]

Reading from wiki it says that the Duke of Gloucester was the prototype for a hypothetical Standard Class 8P, and that it stopped at just a prototype because it was a failure and modernisation plans brought the program to an early end.

[alanch]

Reading from wiki it says that the Duke of Gloucester was the prototype for a hypothetical Standard Class 8P, and that it stopped at just a prototype because it was a failure and modernisation plans brought the program to an early end.

Not a failure - but policy changed, steam was being abandoned and diesels were coming. BR had enough class 8 engines already, and they wouldn't be replaced by new steam.

[transadelaide]

From wiki...

The Duke was regarded as a failure by locomotive crews due to its poor steaming characteristics and its heavy fuel consumption. Trials undertaken by British Railways also returned negative feedback, reporting problems with the poor draughting of the locomotive which resulted in difficulty adhering to the timetables.

The Duke was highly unpopular with crews, who regarded it as something of a liability due to its poor steam production. Inefficiencies caused by the aforementioned problems regarding the draughting abilities and firebox design meant that no further examples were constructed. The fact that no effort was made to rectify these problems indicates the change in policy regarding steam locomotives, with the Modernisation Plan entering circulation as the "Duke" entered service. Based for its entire working life at Crewe North depot, the locomotive was utilised in hauling boat trains on the undemanding North Wales Coast Line between Crewe and Holyhead. All of this culminated in the locomotive having a short service life of only eight years, being withdrawn from service in 1962. The reputation of the locomotive amongst its crews as being a poor steamer was eventually to disappear – but only after it was rescued from the scrapyard during 1974.

That sounds like a failure to me. With the introduction of the modernisation plan coming not long after this meant that instead of the prototype's issues being resolved for a production run they just wrote it off as a failed prototype and shoved it out of the way on an easy route.

[alanch]

From wiki...

The Duke was regarded as a failure by locomotive crews due to its poor steaming characteristics and its heavy fuel consumption. Trials undertaken by British Railways also returned negative feedback, reporting problems with the poor draughting of the locomotive which resulted in difficulty adhering to the timetables.

The Duke was highly unpopular with crews, who regarded it as something of a liability due to its poor steam production. Inefficiencies caused by the aforementioned problems regarding the draughting abilities and firebox design meant that no further examples were constructed. The fact that no effort was made to rectify these problems indicates the change in policy regarding steam locomotives, with the Modernisation Plan entering circulation as the "Duke" entered service. Based for its entire working life at Crewe North depot, the locomotive was utilised in hauling boat trains on the undemanding North Wales Coast Line between Crewe and Holyhead. All of this culminated in the locomotive having a short service life of only eight years, being withdrawn from service in 1962. The reputation of the locomotive amongst its crews as being a poor steamer was eventually to disappear – but only after it was rescued from the scrapyard during 1974.

That sounds like a failure to me. With the introduction of the modernisation plan coming not long after this meant that instead of the prototype's issues being resolved for a production run they just wrote it off as a failed prototype and shoved it out of the way on an easy route.

Perhaps you should read about some of the modern performances of 71000 - after all, it is still working on the main line in preservation!

[stuart666]

It certainly WAS regarded as a failure at the time, and crews used to let out a groan (or something rather stronger) if they knew they had to crew it. The irony is that only after taking it apart when it came out of Barry scrapyard they found out why. I think the damper (or was it the ashpan?) was incorrectly built, so the draught into the fire was wrong, partly explaining the poor combustion. But there was another problem, Swindon (in one of those few instance of when they got it wrong) appear to have designed parts of the smokebox, and due to an incorrect calculation had mean that the blast pipe was the wrong shape. If BR hadnt been such cheapskates, they might have used the giesel ejector it might have been solved whilst it was in service. But it wasnt, and it took a group of ethusiasts to spot a problem the might of BR didnt.

None of this mattered of course, because as Pete Waterman noted during the restoration of Britannia, the built quality made it very clear the end of steam was very close. Even if the locomotive had been a massive success (as it often has been since restoration) it would have changed nothing. The cynic in me wonders if BR had it sabotaged to make sure of it, but thats probably far too machivellian for British Railways. Though knowing some of the stunts they pulled during the Beeching cuts, perhaps not.

The really interesting thing is that its best performances were made whilst one of the cylinders was misaligned, so it really only had the power of a 2 1/2 cylinder locomotive. If they can cure its recent problems, its performance might put previous efforts to shame. It is after all, a more modern design than Tornado...

[Sly401]

Hi Guys

The Duke is on the cards sometime next year ?

Despite its failings in real life (BR) the loco to me epitomises a British express passenger loco and would look good whever it went.

As regards a conversion from the Britannia model, I think I could use the boiler barrel, Cab shell, Drivers and front bogie. most of everything else would be built from scratch.... although partly because I would like to improve things further. ( I wish that I could redo every model , next time I would do so and so different .... think most modellers feel the same )

The Duke would deserve a new model

Sly

[stuart666]

Hi Guys

The Duke is on the cards sometime next year ?

Despite its failings in real life (BR) the loco to me epitomises a British express passenger loco and would look good whever it went.

As regards a conversion from the Britannia model, I think I could use the boiler barrel, Cab shell, Drivers and front bogie. most of everything else would be built from scratch.... although partly because I would like to improve things further. ( I wish that I could redo every model , next time I would do so and so different .... think most modellers feel the same )

The Duke would deserve a new model

Sly

We will look forward to it Sly. I was going to say you can always reuse the tender, but I think they remodelled in the preservation era by addition of another ladder, and possibly a coal pusher (or did this have one already?)

Good looking machine as you say.

[dlljones]

Great news Sly. I'd often see the Duke at Bangor station in the early 60's on my way home from school. A Clan would be a welcome addition as well!!

Cheers

Llew

[ogwilliam]

Yes it is possible to change the "Lazy Fireman", I've just tried it and it worked.

Needless to say back up your folders first to avoid upsets.

1. Go to your IHH/9F Evening Star/Scenery/Characters folder and delete the contents

2. Copy to files from the IHH/7MT Britannia/Scenery/Characters folder into the IHH/9F Evening Star/Scenery/Characters folder

3. Now go to your IHH/9F Evening Star/RailVehicles/Steam/9F/Default/Engine folder and using Serz.exe convert the 9F Evening Star_engine_blueprint.bin file and create a 9F Evening Star_engine_blueprint.xml file

4. Open that xml file and find the line "Scenery\Characters\9F_Driving_steam.xml" and change it to Scenery\Characters\7MT_Driving_steam.xml

5. Now find the line "Scenery\Characters\9F_Fireman_steam.xml" and change it to Scenery\Characters\7MT_Fireman_steam.xml

6. Covert the xml file back into a bin file and job done.

7. Then repeat 3 to 6 for the DC and SC folders and enjoy.

Rgds Ron

Only just found this, but thanks! Was getting really sick of wavy-davy the fireman. Excellent work sir.

[bdy26]

There's an interesting story behind the poor steaming of 71000 as it would seem the ashpan and chimney were not originally built as designed, and "modifications" back to the original design carried out plus some other modifications have delivered a superbly performing loco in preservation. link here: http://www.dukeofgloucester.co.uk/?page=Restoration

It is double heading with Tornado on the ELR tomorrow, looking forward to it

Great to hear it may be getting the Sly touch for RW, you do those big Standards very well Sir!

B

[black8]

There's an interesting story behind the poor steaming of 71000 as it would seem the ashpan and chimney were not originally built as designed, and "modifications" back to the original design carried out plus some other modifications have delivered a superbly performing loco in preservation. link here: http://www.dukeofgloucester.co.uk/?page=Restoration

It is double heading with Tornado on the ELR tomorrow, looking forward to it

Great to hear it may be getting the Sly touch for RW, you do those big Standards very well Sir!

B

Interesting reading indeed bdy!. I knew that something was built wrong in the Duke and only discovered at restoration, but did not know the details.
Thanks for sharing When Sly decides to develop the Duke, perhaps he could add the option the drive it in BR 'original' poor condition and 'restored/preserved' good condition...
Jos

[stuart666]

You wouldnt want to drive it in poor condition, trust me. Even the BR drivers and firemen used to go sick if they knew they got saddled with it.....

Its redraughting and rebuilding has been one of the more interesting experiments in steam, particularly since its heyday. Re Tornado, ive read somewhere that one of the last steam designers in South America approached the Tornado crew with a list of potential mods that would have took Tornado up to the 120mph mark. They turned him down, but I gather some of his proposals (internal streamlining for example) were adopted, which may have helped on the fuel consumption mark.

Now I wonder what affect such mods would have on No111 'The Great Bear'. Hmmm......

[JackGrave]

@stuart666 Re Tornado its Livio Dante Porta wikipedia entry some of his ideas are used for Wardale's project 5 AT steam loco. wikipedia entry Jack

[tialho]

Back to the Brit for a mo, I have a slight issue with performance - steam generation seems limited to around 9000kg/hr (think that's the right unit); I belive for a Brit, this figure should be closer to 30000kg/hr (similar to the 9F and other large steam locos such as the JT A4 or RW Tornado). Performance seems about right (possibly slightly sluggish!), main impact is unauthentically low water consumption, plus little or no effect on boiler pressure when working hard. Can anyone else confirm whether they are seeing this (I'm running expert controls with manual fireman), or could there be an issue with my installation?

Cheers,

Tim