Atomic Systems

OK guys -- I'm going to resurrect this thread. And push the envelope a bit further.

I'm very disappointed that the emphasis of the RailWorks team is still on the visual rather than the operation side. While some may welcome the release of the latest items of rolling stock and locomotives, I'm still hankering for a better simulation.

As an illustration of what I think RailWorks needs to become if it is going to be a true simulation rather than a visual feast, this is the direction I suggest it needs to head.
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Krashnburne is a single track line with crossing loops. A portal at one end generates trains with yellow freight wagons at 10 minute intervals; a portal at the other green wagons at 11 minute intervals. Hence the loops used by one one train to cross the other with change as a session progresses. The AI trains are instructed to take the right track at all loops and proceed to the portal at the end of the single track.

The player, driving a yellow UP SD40 has a task to do (deliver tank wagons and containers), but is free to do it in any way he sees fit. There are a few rules - obey the signal indications, return the points with tall point stands to the straight through position, ... .

So away we go. The SD40 couples onto the wagons in the main Krashnburne yard. As the player heads off onto the main line a yellow AI trains precedes him. He follows the AI train through the first loop and up the 2.5% grade to MultuManufacture (watch in full screen - to do this right click on the small youtube image, select "Watch on in YouTube" and then go full screen - you can then see the signal indications):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7xh_GgFsYA

At this loop the yellow AI waits for the green AI to cross, then both continue on their way. The player also follows the yellow to the next loop:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lfvP7-FStQ

Here the player shunts the tank wagons for loading at Stoopid Fuels. As he does this, yellow and green cross. One again the player follows the yellow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42sl8tchbwk

Onto the Port, where the containers are unloaded and wagons with tank containers attached. Another AI passes as this happens:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYnUeT5C2PQ

Finally it's back to the main yard:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JE8etdYeMo

The player's interactions with the AI could have been different if, for example, the shunting movements took longer or if wagons had to be dropped of at other locations. But as long as the player follows the Standard Operational Procedures the AI and player happily co-exist.
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Now if a vintage simulation can do this, why should we not expect the new kid on the block, with all the benefits of the latest game engine and programming techniques, be able to do the same or better?

Am I really asking for too much?

Phil

Man that has got to be the WORST sounding SD40-2 I ever heard...

nineercharlie wrote: ... the emphasis of the RailWorks team is still on the visual ...

Really ?

USRailFan wrote:Man that has got to be the WORST sounding SD40-2 I ever heard...

Couldn't agree more.

Still also trying to figure out why Trainz videos are in the Railworks general forum.

What I would like to see, is AI doing yard work (shunting). Being able to break down trains or put them together. That would be awesome. So far it appears that it can only break down trains. I would like to know how random do people think Railroads are? It's true that no two days are alike, but it's not like they just send trains out of the yard willy nilly. There is some resemblance of a schedule.

styckx wrote:

USRailFan wrote:Man that has got to be the WORST sounding SD40-2 I ever heard...

Couldn't agree more.

Still also trying to figure out why Trainz videos are in the Railworks general forum.

Are they? If I tried to put a Railworks video in an MSTS or Trainz section I'd be done for disturbing the peace!

The only reason I can see for the Trainz video is to show that the AI is "Slightly" better in Trainz than it currently is in Railworks. Although the last Trainz version I've bought and played was 2006, it did seem that "Sometimes" the Trainz AI / Signalling was far more cleverer than Railworks can muster at times.

The point here though is that the Trainz AI can cope with 'unscripted' events (i.e player running really late / doing things out of order) far better than the Railworks AI, which works provided the scenario creator has allowed for player stupidity / late running / other event. If not the AI can Panic!

USRailFan wrote:Man that has got to be the WORST sounding SD40-2 I ever heard...

The sound has been majorly distorted, I can promice you it doesn't really sound like that!. Haha! Everything sounds like it underwater!

I'd hate to bring this up, or even get involved in this but as I'm interestedin trams I have to say Ai is very improtant to a working tram network!

I know this is a Train sim, but I'm sure Trams can have there say! Haha! If you look on Tramways, you can get trams to run as 'doubles', i.e One tram in front and one behind, to hold lots more passengers, running very close! Well several meters! With Trainz this is possible! (I can see this getting confusing). Say, I was driving a Tram slowly and an AI tram catches up, the tram behind will match it's speed and when the tram stops the AI tram behind will also stop. (Queing system) With RailWorks the Ai Tram wont even move from it's starting point. To avoid this on Trainz, you'd have to put a signal up or move the tram behind a signal, which is another issues becuase trams don't have signals, so it'll have to be a trigger stop system, i.e the tram stops at certen distinations. I guess I'm just repeating what everyone else had already said! But the only way I've worked out how to run an AI tram system is to have a two track loop with one tram on each track, and maybe, if it works have one manual tram running. You can possibly have more then one AI tram on one track, but not doing the whole circuit. Now on a big route, only being able to have two trams is rather, uninteresting. I want, well maybe not a tram every few seconds but at least more then two! It's a sticky matter, but I hope some day something more 'non-scripted Ai' will come! Anyway, to summaries, like most other poeple have said Trainz has a more 'human' like fealling to it. But then again Ai can be a very complicated setup! I don't want to make people angry by this comment and I know some of this has already been talked about, just making a comment on the tram side of things!

And I don't want to start any Train sim wars, just trying to make a neutral comment!

Cheers,
Mikr

It's not quite true that trams don't have signals: they are effectively road traffic driving "on sight", and have signals that closely resemble road signals both in appearance and meaning. Typically these give them priority over other road traffic. On busy tramlines this can and does result in trams closely following each other, but not "tailgating" for obvious reasons. Typically two trams will wait together at a signal and then depart in different directions at the junction.

There are also a number of ATO and ATP systems which don't have fixed block sections or signals, but instead have a moving "window" of track which is known to be clear, which the train moves inside. When the window can no longer be extended forwards, the authorised speed decreases in order to maintain safe braking distances and separation. In some ATO systems, this can result in several trains queueing up in fairly close proximity to each other when the lead one stops.

None of which is supported by RailWorks. Heck, even Permissive Block working only has limited support.

Thanks for the comments on the videos. They are appreciated.

There is no denying that the sound in the clips is absolutely woeful. I can assure you that in-game it is much, much better. I think that the application I use to make the clips, FRAPS, does not agree with my motherboard sound chip.

I've been following the thread on the latest RailWorks "Shunter" release. Am I correct in concluding it's yet another of the "do this by book exactly as instructed and do not think for yourself or you will fail" activity pack?

If so then I'll give it a miss. In the words of Kennith Slessor "Time that is moved by little fidget wheels is not my time .. ."

It is much more satisfying and mentally stimulating to be given a task and then to work out the best way of accomplishing it. In some of the other activities for Krashnburne, for example, the dilemma is how to initially marshal the rolling stock so that drop offs and pick ups in the freight yards down the line do not require an inordinate amount of time consuming shunting. And to anticipate and work around the movements of the bi-directional AI trains that share the single track sections and the crossing loops. And, of course, to be able to say at the end "Well, I didn't do that too well. What I should have done is ... " and then go back and do it a bit better.

It's a pity that RailWorks does not allow that type of activity - the freedom to think, to plan and, most of all, to interact with AI.

It is possible to conclude that the RailWorks business model is to provide a string of exquisite and highly detailed payware add-ons while ignoring the fundamental shortcomings in the core program. Is this in the long term interests of the simulation?

Phil

Phil, it's in the long term interests of the simulation (if you can call it a simulation) because that's what the majority wants. Give it up, we've been outvoted.

nineercharlie wrote:
I've been following the thread on the latest RailWorks "Shunter" release. Am I correct in concluding it's yet another of the "do this by book exactly as instructed and do not think for yourself or you will fail" activity pack?

l

Actually, no. You need to move wagons x,y and z to sidings 1, 2 & 3 etcetera, but how you go about is, within reason (and by that I mean don't route yourself via the down main instead of the siding headshunt), up to you

One thing I have noticed doing some beta testing of a single track route, is that the timetable "breaks" at the planning stage if it thinks two trains are timed to meet on the same section of single track line. Testing a nine mile route with two crossing loops, Train A crossing Train B going in the opposite direction. Set one up to start at 1000, the other at 1001 but despite pathing over opposite sides of the crossing loop immediately got the red dashes and blocked path error message. After adjusting (extending) the departure time of the AI train at the first crossing loop the timetable then cleared the error message and initialised okay.

Several things come to mind. Firstly, it makes Railworks hugely impractical for long or complex single track routes with several AI trains as you are going to have to "graph" the timetable like a real train planner so all the schedules are precisely timed to meet at the crossing loops. Even then, there's no guarantees as next time RW loads the scenario it might make a different set of calculations which throws your graph out and fails to load the scenario. It could be argued that on the real railway there needs to be a "plan" where trains will cross on a single line certainly in the UK and Europe for timetabled passenger services, but the scenario editor and AI should not be such a blunt tool when it comes to rejecting a timetable that doesn't work. The AI should be more than capable of resolving the conflict, with an advisory at the planning stage that there may be an issue with the timings but not stop the job, then the despatcher resolve the conflict in game. In the case of North American etc. freight lines there are no fixed schedules for meets at crossing loops, most trains have a notional start time from the originating yard but it is then up to despatcher to arrange meets with opposing trains depending on how trains are running and the priority of other trains. This it seems Railworks cannot do, even at the scenario building stage.

I found the Trainz 2010 AI quite good considering that I made my own route and kept adding perpetual trains to it. But in the end the program could only take so much...it became a game of "see how many trains I can keep running before it all comes to a halt" A long time ago I used to program programmable logic controllers for industrial machines. You had very few instructions you could use so the logic solutions got to be quite a lot of fun. It was amazing how the programs needed tweaking every now and then as a machine found yet another new circumstance and crashed to a halt. But it would certainly suggest to me that with more complex language a better program could be developed for Railworks train routing than we have.

Railworks is all about immersion and atmosphere for me. Let's face it, there is not much to train driving, even with the steam locos. To do the job properly and protect itself against newcomers I would be hoping for the following in order of priority:

1. Stutter fixed
2. Scaled up Coal or Diesel consumption so I have to manage fuel.
3. Better weather effects...raindrops on windows and frost on glass, heavy snow, howling wind etc...
4. Real time lighting effects for time of day (Scaleable), working headlights.
5. Better AI which adapts to changes of plan (like being behind schedule, train derailments etc.)
6. Perpetual trains (eg loading and delivering coal on an ongoing basis)
7. Programmable Industries, supply and demand (Now I am asking too much?)

I would be happy to pay for some of this....for example in Flight Sim X I have "Real Weather Extreme"