How Much Payware In A Freeware Route? (Poll)

[bigvern]

...

What is the point in anyone asking for feedback then when it is given, good bad or indifferent, people have to then have a go just to satisfy their own opinions
Vern, you have wasted your time here mate 'cos .... well, I'm out of here :bad-words:

On the contrary, I think the results are views expressed are interesting and useful. It could be the recent price hike on GARL has resulted in that not being seen as an essential source of route assets. A shame as the signalling in particular seems better than the default, however not worth expecting end users of a freeware route to cough up £25.

When the poll has run its course it will be fascinating to analyse what it means for route builders.

As rightly pointed out, many routes are built for personal preference and not primarily for sharing but let's face it - all of us who do this, whether routes or rolling stock, pay or free, have an element of the showman in us hence the desire to share the end result.

[Neptune50006]

As rightly pointed out, many routes are built for personal preference and not primarily for sharing but let's face it - all of us who do this, whether routes or rolling stock, pay or free, have an element of the showman in us hence the desire to share the end result.

Exactly. The human ego would not allow us to spend months working on something we think is good and then not let others know about it.

[Neptune50006]

I am working on the Lynton & Barnstaple route and accept that choosing a steam era, single track, narrow gauge route will have limited appeal. As I do want to share it with the largest possible audience it will contain no payware, other than the IOW. That is the decision Gary and I made on our route, but it was not imposed by anyone else, and I suggest other route builders must make the same value judgements for themselves.

We are in the lucky position that you (Phil), have the skill to be able to create the assets that we need for our route. This highlights the fact that the greater effort needed to make items for RW has caused a shortage in the amount of freeware assets available for route building. People will say "look in the file library, there are loads of assets". True enough, but they don't cover the wide cross section needed to be able to do without payware totally, at the moment anyway.

[markpullinger]

Have to say that I have bought some addons just to use certain routes and use certain stock - but that was my choice! Some of the Assets out there are getting to the status of must haves & even though I don't personally like the 380 units, if a route that I really wanted needed the assets, I would probably buy it. My son does like it and the 390, & when he gets his own railworks in a few weeks, these will probably be top of his wish list rather than the kettles & diesels! I think it will probably be the 2 welsh routes & the WCML that swing the balance in Garls direction! I mean look at the lengths people were willing to go to to get Carbonia working with everything in!

[haddock1000]

I feel i'd better put my pennies worth in, and before I start, please don't flame me, and any posts of the kind I will not reply to.

I think that if a route/scenario that works on a freeware route/reskin is freeware, then it should be, i.e. all stock, assets etc are freeware (I'll take exception to scenarios released for a payware route). I understand that some people have downloaded payware items, used them on a route, and then released that route, and that is purely their decision, and only their's, but I, sadly, will not be downloading that route, unless a payware item free version is released. I'm sorry that this is my view, but the route would have to be groundbreaking for me to buy payware items for that route.

On the point of the payware items themselves, I am actually concerned about them, or more to the point, the quantity of them. What I mean is that the market could become so saturated that people find 'other means' of obtaining them. Peoples will start to obtain them in this way (I'm sure everyone knows about pirate bay), thus making the actual companies that are releasing these items go under (adobe apparently nearly went just because no-one was buying CS5, they were just downloading straight off of TPB). I feel that this could mean bad times for RWs overall, and that people should think twice about the price of the item that they're selling on STEAM.

Thanks,

chaddockdk

[ashgray]

OK, it looks like some clarification is called for.

When things get to a stage where any member feels worried or intimidated at the prospect of being flamed for posting their views because of preceding events, things have obviously got out of hand. This thread is, in theory, a great debate, and will continue to be one if ALL members can exercise restraint, post reasonably and thoughtfully, and recognise the right of others to disagree with a particular viewpoint. OK, it's a controversial issue but that does not mean that people can start getting personal or argumentative - let's try to see the bigger picture here.

Anyone who appears to be using this thread as an opportunity to go toe to toe with other members in an unacceptable way will be dealt with. Let's keep it reasoned and stay on topic folks.

Ash

[stephenholmes]

Hello Ash
I absolutely agree with your comments
Kind regards Stephen
@ralph I agree also with your comments about keeping pricing reasonable

[crowman]

Paul and Ally will soon be uploading routes, and they will not be making a profit out of their terrific work. They paid for the GARL and the IoW as much as the rest of us did. If they feel they ought to include assets they paid good money for, it should be entirely up to them, no one else.

Just to clarify, my WCML-South is 98% stock assets and only has a few GARL added, mainly the Overhead wire supports. Like I said before I think that most people will have these assets already when the time comes to release the route.

If there is a way to change the pay ware assets in bulk using RW-Tools then I see no reason why 2 versions of a route could be released. Only downside to that is extending routes, I plan to release my route in four stages, making two of each will just be a nightmare.

If the GARL had not jumped in price would this poll be an issue at all?

Paul

[RSderek]

Most route builders choose a route that appeals to them, set in an era they like. They build for their own pleasure and as such are entitled to include any assets they choose, and I totally support their right to do so. However, if you want that route to be appreciated by a wider audience you need to consider the needs of the "end user", and the purpose of this poll, it seems to me, is to establish what you need to include/exclude to maximise that appreciation.

Taking my RS.com hat off this is pretty close to my view.


I'm surprised that route builders have not hooked up with an asset creator to make a joint project.

The DLC provide choice, back in the early days there were grumbles about not enough stock, well now there is.
However it takes time, money and effort to create them and we don't work for magic beans so we have to sell them.
Like all of you we have to work to pay for our daily bread.

Also, what you have to remember though is that the DLC help pay for the improvments, updates and fixes to the core product. Without the DLC you would certainly not have them at no extra cost.

Lastly, never say never but I do not see the IOW becoming core in the near future.

regards

Derek

[stephenholmes]

Hello Derek
I think the IOW possibly not being core in the future is a step in the right direction
Kind regards Stephen

[growler37]

Hi Derek
Can i ask if RS.com will consider producing route asset packs at some time in the future, to aid route builders?
With thanks
Kevin

[USRailFan]

Re the "price jump" of GARL - wasn't that made fairly clear at the time it was released, that the initial reduced price was only for a certain amount of time (that one might have expected it to be for more than a couple of weeks is another thing).

[spikeyorks]

Doesn't this phrase

I'm surprised that route builders have not hooked up with an asset creator to make a joint project.

Totally contradict this phrase

Lastly, never say never but I do not see the IOW becoming core in the near future.

.
After all isn't that what a number of people on here have asked? That just the scenic items on IOW be made available to community as a separate package (preferably in the core) to enable people that aren't interested in that particular route to be able run other freeware routes without having to purchase the full package?

Equally if Paul only wishes to use a small number of assets from GARL then wouldn't it be a good idea if those assets could be produced separately.......even as a much cheaper download "patch" for people who don't have either the money or the inclination to purchase the full product.

If the GARL had not jumped in price would this poll be an issue at all?

Yes it would in the context of this poll because it might mean that 3-4 different groups of assets are used at a total cost of £60-£80. I suppose if you only use GARL (and nothing else) then you could argue that your route was no more "expensive" to acquire than one that simply used IOW.

At the end of the day, regardless as to what anyone says, it is the "businesses" associated with Railworks that hold the keys here. If they believe that maintaining the status quo is the more lucrative path then nothing will change. Ironically, although they often get the flak, we must remember that it is not the freeware contributors that are at fault here. The good thing is at least, in this case, one of the creators has had the great thought of asking the rest of us what we think.

[spikeyorks]

Just to clarify, my WCML-South is 98% stock assets and only has a few GARL added, mainly the Overhead wire supports.

Paul - Have you thought of asking the community whether someone would be prepared to make you freeware versions of these? You never know there might be a creator out there somewhere who would be spurred on by the thought of a "completely free" freeware WCML.

[FoggyMorning]

One might make a case that a "freeware" route or routes relying heavily on GARL or Rich Garber's [sp?] assets adds value to that payware item. It's pretty remarkable to me that there is so much freely available content for Railworks in addition to the excellent (if inevitably a little generic) core content. It does seem to me a little ungrateful to say that the creators of freeware routes should not include payware assets in their creations, though of course I respect anyone's preference that such routes do not. As an example using the earlier post about being put off of downloading the fantastic looking South West Wales route or the WCML because of their use of GARL assets, isn't another way of looking at it that for the £24.99 asking price of GARL you get several more routes for your money