Atomic Systems

Hi
I realise that this is a touchy subject but one that needs ,thoughtful and constructive debate,and absoulutely no flaming! the question i ask is,is the comercial side strangling the freeware hobbyist side of Railworks,titles appear almost daily now,£10 for this item or £19 for that,we are not talking pocket money anymore here, this is serious cash,the fact is most of the payware creators,started with freeware,but when promise is shown, they are snapped up by the commercial side,i have no problem with that,good luck to them!but commercialism alone will not give Railworks the longevity of MSTS,its success should be a lesson to us all ,its a misconception that a title dies if its developers pull the plug or move on,the net is full of sites dedicated to addons for games that were created years ago and whose creators disapeared into cyberspace,long ago.
This is why i feel the freeware side of RW must survive,because when the payware bonanza is over, if we want to still enjoy this hobby and that is what i regard RW as a hobby we must not be overwhelmed now, but keep supporting and creating freeware because that is the future of our hobby.
Regards
Kevin

Yes its of concern. If someone new comes along and they just wanted to have to have a go of one scenario how much would they have to fork out just to play it?

What if in 12 months time there are 100 new engines, 100 x 12 = £1200. Who knows how many there will be but it certainly getting to expensive alreadyl.

hopefully posted in good manners and not flamed.

Yes and no for me mate, I believe there is a place for both provided we get the balance right.

It also depends on how people look at it really. Recently I have been personally branded as a payware developer, a tag I dont want as it is not exclusive to what I do. Granted, I may not provide the greatest freeware ever seen, but something is surely better than nothing, no matter what it contains, whether it be a reskin, scenario, asset or route. I am still committed to freeware as much as ever, would not have it any other way and would hope that if there are any producers of freeware content that have been "snapped up" that they still have a commitment to freeware, no matter how small.

TheTazman wrote:Yes its of concern. If someone new comes along and they just wanted to have to have a go of one scenario how much would they have to fork out just to play it?

What if in 12 months time there are 100 new engines, 100 x 12 = £1200. Who knows how many there will be but it certainly getting to expensive alreadyl.

hopefully posted in good manners and not flamed.

But just because 100 engines are available doesn't mean you buy them all. Would you rather fewer engines be available? It's all about choice. Without payware, I suspect we would have few locos available and we'd all be complaining at the lack of variety.

Proably due to the fact that alot of us are regulars here and we see sommething new all the time. It just gets our hopes up i guess that the next product we see will be a freebie.

phat2003uk wrote:

TheTazman wrote:Yes its of concern. If someone new comes along and they just wanted to have to have a go of one scenario how much would they have to fork out just to play it?

What if in 12 months time there are 100 new engines, 100 x 12 = £1200. Who knows how many there will be but it certainly getting to expensive alreadyl.

hopefully posted in good manners and not flamed.

But just because 100 engines are available doesn't mean you buy them all. Would you rather fewer engines be available? It's all about choice. Without payware, I suspect we would have few locos available and we'd all be complaining at the lack of variety.

Hi Guys

Surely the problem (if there is one ) is with freeware producers, ( not intended as a slight ) and does not lie with the payware guys... who are doing their bit.
(To clarify the guys that actually produce freeware are doing their bit too , it is the freeware guys that are not producing anything to be exact ).

Myself I think there is certainly a place for both, and if you can produce models to the latest commercial standards then if you are prepared to take the heat I see no reason not to take that route.

One of the reasons for the lack of freeware is the small size of the community, take a look at the number of downloads of some of the best recent releases 250-350 is the mark for most.

The potential user base is far higher with around 4 times more people actively buying add ons and of course many more that are refusing to let go of MSTS.
I actually find it quite a comparison with when steam ended on BR ... steam engines could do no wrong and diesels could do no right.. sounds familiar

On a business note , each of my releases has and will continue to have something extra added for free..

Freeware is not necessarily a recipe for success of the platform, I agree it would be needed to recreate the MSTS experience but that in itself would spell the end of commercial development.

Have fun and try not to worry about the way things develop .. it is out of any individuals influence... RW will find its own path

Sly

The burgeoning payware scene can only be a good thing, and as a former freeware content maker in the Need For Speed (car racing game) scene I will explain why. The most annoying thing back then was when I was in the process of modelling a new car, for example Porsche 911, to a high standard (like a new train - getting the exterior, interior, sounds and physics as real as NFS would allow) and somebody else would release a hacked default Ferrari car with a quick hatchet job on the exterior to make it look a little like a mutant crossbreed 911/Ferrari but still having the interior, sound and physics of the old Ferrari. Every time that happened it removed any incentive to carry on with the high standard development because everybody already has that model car and wouldn't bother looking at mine. The big problem with the NFS scene was that there was no minimum standard to be met.

It's different in the RW world because the high standards set by RSC, JT etc developers act as a yardstick, and one that we've seen people rise to meet with routes like W&B and the Port Road. Because of the payware developers, the truly committed freeware developers and the nature of editing RW there is minimal incentive to dump half-baked freeware on the scene. While no consumer-level simulation will ever be properly lifelike, at least with RW the right mechanisms in place to ensure high standards are kept.

And finally to put it in perspective, most of the lower-priced payware only costs little more than a couple of cups of coffee or a movie ticket, and a hell of a lot less than a single decent HO single carriage for a model train. Stop whining about the price or use it as an excuse to go on a diet.

I agree with Sly about exposure. My Heartbeat Moor appears to have "topped out" at just under 300 downloads with the reworked Sulitjelma - despite the boost with the "Chinese Stuff" (Yes, I'm a big fan of Crank & Crank 2 - Statham rules!) - not even crept over 150 downloads. Now my main motivation for building stuff is not to get into a waste water contest for the highest download count but it does come over as a bit...pitiful. That's why in previous threads a couple of weeks ago I argued the case for something similar to the DLS, sourced either at Steam or with a direct connection to RS.com. Unfortunately that isn't going to happen due to lack of potential financial return, though there's no doubt the DLS is a nice little money spinner for Auran even if it does creek under the weight these days. I know Matt is looking at some means of streamlining the download process for dependencies but still means people need to find their way to what, in many circles, is still regarded primarily as an MSTS site.

While I've started another non-UK route intended as freeware you can forgive my motivation for not being 100% enthusiastic. If other freeware creators look at the lacklustre download figures and feel the same way, partly explains why stuff is not being created. Polite enquiries on T-S.com the other week as to whether authors might consider converting their MSTS stuff to RW elicited a dousing in napalm.

As regards the payware itself, well I have to admit having bought the Class 20 and Mark One coaches, not really used them that much and the Class 50 - while a nice looking model - I really cannot justify another £10 on an add-on. £5 maybe, but not £10. While TS2010 has its faults still no proper AI despatcher, no frogs/checks at points and Speedtree is a good laugh, for £25 you do get a fully tooled up product with oodles of rolling stock and routes. The same £25 wouldn't even buy the Class 20, Class 50 and Mark Ones for RW.

I think there's a place for both.

However, and of course this is just my opinion, the quality of payware needs to be closer to the stellar quality of the recent Chinese freeware releases. Have you seen the detail on that diesel? Take the springs (I don't know the technical term, apologies), for example. Wow!

Incidentally, I wish more freeware authors would include their email address in the readme.txt file so I can email my thanks

I have never looked at download figures before and am quite amazed. I am even more grateful for what you creators are doing. (I am a user and create nothing at the moment.)

If I had to choose between the loss of payware or freeware it would be the payware as the freeware provides the essential lifeblood and stimulation of activities and routes that are works of art. I now realise that many - most? - users must be missing out horribly.

Having said that, I do buy nearly all the payware. The great Tea Tanks are the latest.

Perhaps I will have to don the sandwich boards this weekend and alert the world to the glory of Railworks.

Peter

Hi

The main motivation for producing freeware should be that it will be the product of something that you personally wanted to do. Sharing with others does give you a good feeling but it is also the added incentive to do as good a job as you can. It does not really matter if there are 100 downloads or 2000 downloads, the bottom line is that I can enjoy my own creations knowing that I have spent my time producing something that gives me personally great pleasure.

Railway Simulation is my hobby and I do it mostly in my spare time. I have my business to run, which provides me sufficient income to live comfortably on, so there is no need for me to try and make a profit from my hobby by charging for content.

Everyone has their own view and will take different approaches regarding content sharing, and their decisions are right for them.

Payware and freeware will sit side by side and if there ever comes a day when RailWorks is no longer supported by RS.com, then I have no doubt that the simulation will live on indefinitely anyway. I do not intend to buy every piece of DLC that becomes available, but by choosing those items that interest me most, I will get the most pleasure, and those items will also be usable indefinitely.

If you enjoy creating content for RailWorks that you do not intend to share with others then add in whatever payware and freeware you like. If you do intend to share with others then there are a few rules to follow to ensure that your content is easy for those people to install and use.

The Railway Simulator market is relatively very small and I doubt if anyone (perhaps Steam ) is making much out of it. We do need to stick together as a community and each do what we can whether it be producing payware or freeware content or simply just playing with the simulator.

growler37 wrote:is the comercial side strangling the freeware
Kevin

I wouldn't use the word strangling. I would think that if you counted up all of the truly original items of freeware for RS/RW (reskins not included), it would be about even. The problem is that there is not the vast proliferation of freeware that there is for MSTS.

Having used both sims over the years I have come to realise that both are totally different animals. MSTS was/is good, but it is primitive compared to RS/RW. This is not a slight on MSTS. It means that content is a lot easier to create and therefore means there are a lot more people willing to have a go. IMO the abandonment of MSTS by Microsoft was possibly the best thing to have happened to it in the long run. This meant that people had to build something themselves and not wait for some commercial developer to make it for them. I think it's fair to say that a lot of items created by (what I call) the "independent" commercial producers would probably have been freeware in the MSTS world. The extra investment in time and software needed to make a good RS/RW model is considerably higher than the equivalent MSTS model, as we know, and so some people may feel they need rewarding for their efforts. Also, there has now developed, a niche in the train simming world. That being far fewer content developers, and so there are some who are prepared to exploit this situation and make money from it.

There are always going to be people who enjoy making content and are willing to give it to the community free of charge. But the ratio between freeware and commercial ware will be much closer now in the RS/RW world.

Finally we are in the situation with RS/RW that, unlike Microsoft, the product has not been abandoned, and we have seen a steady input from RW.com. They have to sell commercial content to continue funding the development of the product. I just hope that the investment of myself and others, by purchasing their commercial items brings about some of the much needed and wanted improvements that have been well documented in these forums in the past.

I don't mind forking out for payware.I only buy stuff that I will actually use, which counts out anything that boils water for movement. Im just not a steam fan. Ive never been disappointed with my purchases.
What does get my goat, is the complete lack of loyalty to previous customers when products are transferred to steam. We've seen this with literally every model produced bar the HST buffer pack by Oovee. They have transferred all their customers to steam so noone misses out on any updates. I have a growing list of items that I need to repurchase via steam, most notably the mk2es and 158, so were up to nigh on £20 of dead money already.

pacerpilot wrote: What does get my goat, is the complete lack of loyalty to previous customers when products are transferred to steam. We've seen this with literally every model produced bar the HST buffer pack by Oovee. They have transferred all their customers to steam so noone misses out on any updates. I have a growing list of items that I need to repurchase via steam, most notably the mk2es and 158, so were up to nigh on £20 of dead money already.

fully agree, it is disgraceful

Hi,

Just an observation but from what I have seen, nearly every dev who has made payware for RS/RWs have also provided some freeware.

regards

Derek