The future of freeware

[ightenhill]

One issue I have is I bought the class 66 and class 08 for railsim and ported them over yet now find the same products have extras such as wagons etc..

EG the class 66 comes with
OAA 2-Axle Open Wagon
PCA 2-Axle Depressed Barrel Cement Tank
PGA 2-Axle Stone Hopper

[growler37]

Hi
I really hate tribalism in anything,especially in what is at the end of the day is a hobby,MSTS,TRAINZ,BVE, all sit comfortably together on my machine,they all have there plus points and of course negatives,i choose to route build in RW because of the ease of use and the fantastic support i can get from here when i get stuck,other people use different platforms MSTS, Etc, which is great i can see no valid reason for a conflict for using any sim,but for me the future is Railworks! its fascinating watching it evolve.
Regards
Kevin

[captaincooke]

That's why in previous threads a couple of weeks ago I argued the case for something similar to the DLS, sourced either at Steam or with a direct connection to RS.com. Unfortunately that isn't going to happen due to lack of potential financial return, though there's no doubt the DLS is a nice little money spinner for Auran even if it does creek under the weight these days.

I'd be interested to know how you came to the conclusion that 'there's no doubt the DLS is a nice little money spinner'. Without knowing the costs of running the DLS or the number of First Class Ticket subscribers I'd say there's at least some doubt.

[NeutronIC]

I think it is an unfortunate symptom of humanity sadly. We're just going to have to deal with it.

People either think the grass is greener elsewhere, OR they get paranoid about the possibility of other grasses being greener and then get protective of their own grass.

Overall I have come to the conclusion that I see little point in trying to "convert" MSTS (or Trainz or whatever, let's not make this just about MSTS) users any more - there's nothing you can say that hasn't already been said, nothing you can show that hasn't already been seen. If / when they become interested they'll move, until that time they'll be perfectly happy with what they've got. After all, if what they've got does what they want then that's surely good enough for them.

I spoke with a number of people at the show this weekend and I have to say the general tide is turning in the public - when RailWorks came out it was still very much "MSTS does what I want, there's so much for it" etc - but now there's starting to be enough for RailWorks now that it's getting interesting for people and more and more people were of the opinion that it was looking to be time to add it to their hobby.

One person I spoke to who has been a member of this community since day one but been away for some time now, was himself a respected route builder for MSTS, was having a fresh look at the latest MSTS had to offer (a new route from Reg Furniss that RobertM was kindly demonstrating) versus Port Road on RailWorks and he said that seeing the MSTS route on its own route look superb, but next to Port Road on RailWorks really highlighted in a very stark way how far things have come on the new simulator.

BUT there are particular items that other people want to use and the fact that they can get those items for free on MSTS versus paying for them on RailWorks is currently proving a barrier to their move. That doesn't mean the payware thing is wrong, it just slows things up for now - as more and more items become available on RailWorks it'll be more and more interesting and more compelling and slowly some of those still using MSTS may see something that pulls them over.

Regarding the comments about the payware for RailWorks - I guess another analogy, going back to the old one about model railways, is that if you'd invested a ton of time in kit builds and older triang stuff and over the last many years you had a comprehensive selection that you were happy with, then a new manufacturer comes out and starts putting out stuff that is superbly detailed but quite expensive (probably a suitable price for what you get, don't confuse expensive with over-priced in this analogy, i'm NOT implying that one way or the other for RailWorks ) - you get one crowd using it going "how can you stick with that old triang stuff, this is just gorgeous and looks so much better" and the other crowd saying "yeah but it's going to cost a huge amount to move to that, nothing to stay with what i've got, and most of what I want I can't even get in the new super detail type". That happens in model railways - look at Hornby and how they've upped their game and started producing much better quality models with much better detailing and much better quality motor and pickup assemblies, but they've also gone from £50-60 to more like £100 per model too. Same options are available there though - stick with what you've got because it does what you want, or look to move later when something captures your interest. Nothing wrong with either approach IMHO.

Until that time I think it's just got to be a live and let live situation - both products have their strong and weak points both technically and in the more wider sense such as what you can do with them (stock, routes etc), bating each other is just going to raise those blockades further.

It was very interesting reading David's post and I thank him for making it - I must admit that I too have felt that the route building challenge was probably one of the best things to happen from the community perspective at least. The trick now is to see what the next challenge should be and follow it on.

Matt.

[NeutronIC]

I'd be interested to know how you came to the conclusion that 'there's no doubt the DLS is a nice little money spinner'. Without knowing the costs of running the DLS or the number of First Class Ticket subscribers I'd say there's at least some doubt.

Must admit, knowing how this place operates financially i'd have to say there's no money spinner there at all. UKTrainSim only survives because I don't take an appropriate salary for the tasks required. Not being able to pay for any of the key staff to make the business run does not make for a sound money spinner; and the skill set to build and run a 24/7 online operation like the DLS is not the same sort of skill set that a game company would usually have to hand; so there *would* be operational costs related to Staff - and on our current levels that would sink the site quickly. A full time programmer, IT and networking expert could definitely be used on a site like this to keep it moving, supported and online - and another £5k+ per month of expenses is just hysterical when you look at the figures

Matt.

[Basherz]

Unfortunately Matt, that is how some people do view it, I know, and have even said it myself in the past, but when you look outside of RW, yours is indeed a comparatively huge operation that requires staffing of some sort 24/7.

[NeutronIC]

*nod* - but the comparison to the DLS is appropriate, because that's probably two or three times *bigger* than us I would think, maybe that makes it more of a money spinner though - not sure if that would take much more manpower to run but would generate a lot more income to cover those costs. Who knows, when we get that big i'll let you know *lol* (removes tongue from cheek)

Matt.

[bigvern]

That's why in previous threads a couple of weeks ago I argued the case for something similar to the DLS, sourced either at Steam or with a direct connection to RS.com. Unfortunately that isn't going to happen due to lack of potential financial return, though there's no doubt the DLS is a nice little money spinner for Auran even if it does creek under the weight these days.

I'd be interested to know how you came to the conclusion that 'there's no doubt the DLS is a nice little money spinner'. Without knowing the costs of running the DLS or the number of First Class Ticket subscribers I'd say there's at least some doubt.

Perhaps "money spinner" wasn't quite the right phrase to use, then. I doubt anyone outside Auran knows the exact cost benefit of the operation and is unlikely to make that information public!

However there is no doubt it is an invaluable boost to the success of the programme, even if actually run as a loss leader. (I was actually trying to be positive about Trainz). The fact that not long ago Auran were offering "lifetime" tickets seems to indicate the company regard it as a significant source of income. Once everyone intending to buy the latest version of the programme has done so, it effectively becomes a primary source of revenue.

[pdeee]

I have found this thread to be a real good interesting read, quite thought provoking.

RS lasted only for a few weeks on my PC and no add-on payware was bought for it, RW has been on for a few months now and with the appearance of South Devon Banks, Heartbeat Moor, The Port Road and the developing Westhouses and Blackwell Branch freeware routes, these have given me a reason to buy payware and to download freeware scenarios and rolling stock, such as Kevin's great KngTrains from UKTS.
Someone earlier mentioned scenarios needing payware stock, a few minutes in Mike Simpson's RW_Tools allows you to replace these items.

Over the last few years, I have only bought Premier Membership at UKTS for the odd month now and then, but will now be taking out a yearly membership as more RW items are being offered, also I now look daily at the RW Newest Files, all of which has resulted in MSTS being removed from the PC, sad I know, it had a good run, but for me it has reached its sell by date....... !!!

I do like the "complete" package method that Keith uses with Port Road with the inclusion of various scenarios, just one download and you are up and running, scenarios are very important, without them a route is lifeless.

I think Matt has got it right that both factions, freeware and payware will develop over the coming twelve months, all to the benefit of we the punters.

What would I like to see next, a decent scenario tool and a new Dispatcher and more of Digital Tractions method of, when buying from them offering a second product at half price.

[longbow]

After the last debate on this topic I felt a little frustrated at the lack of constructive proposals, so I took the liberty of asking several authors of high quality freeware MSTS scenery and rolling stock if I could convert one of their models into RW. So far everyone I've asked has agreed, and I've also had valuable help in the conversion process from some experienced RW authors.

This is taking some time as I'm still learning myself, but hopefully this will result in some more RW freeware and more importantly it may encourage those authors to model for RW in future. Bringing even one or two prolific freeware asset creators into RW could make a big difference.

Are there are other RW fans out there with the requisite skills who would be interested in doing this?

[hertsbob]

Very good man indeed! Well done.

I await with baited breath to see the fruits of your labours.

Cheers

Bob

[kennyb]

As a lot have said, I also don`t mind paying for good quality items ( and so far all that I have paid for are very good quality ) but where I`m getting fed up is with items being released by a developer and then making the same item available on Steam, but with some slight alteration that makes it incompatible.

A case now is a reskin for the DT Mk2e coaches (DB Schenker) released on UKTS yesterday (19/01) stating that it is only compatible with the Steam Dowmload vervion and not the DT version - having purchased my Mk2e`s from DT on the 02/01 I now find that to use this reskin ( and possibly others by the same person ) I need to yet again re-purchase the same item.

Therefore it is not becoming a case of spending say £4.99 for the Mk2e`s ( excellent value ) but to use all reskins ( if more are released) actual cost will be £9.98 as two sets will be required..... So come on developers... if RailWorks is to survive please make releases via Steam compatible with your own -- or just release either by yourself or only on Steam...
.
Ken

[longbow]

I don't know why this hasn't been resolved but hopefully it will be a one-off problem - DT were quick to release a patch for the Mk 1s to bring the web version into line with the subsequent Steam release.

[AndiS]

After the last debate on this topic I felt a little frustrated at the lack of constructive proposals, so I took the liberty of asking several authors of high quality freeware MSTS scenery and rolling stock if I could convert one of their models into RW.

...

Are there are other RW fans out there with the requisite skills who would be interested in doing this?

Actually, I don't have much experience in exporting anything but scenery. But if you need some help for mass production of blueprints, I can easily help. You send me an Excel with 30 lines for 30 scenery items. Columns would be display name and filename, I guess, but also shadow type an whatever you like. It would also work for wagons. I did it for signal parts which are scenery, milepost, or signal in RW, some with, some without blobby shadow; and for track rules.

For each application, you need to individually determine what you want to specify for each item, and put that in a table and then (I) adapt the script that does the cloning & adaptation.

I could extract the physics data from .wag files, but I would suggest that that data be double-checked in the conversion process anyway. In MSTS, I had good success with the "quality assurance method" of putting all the mass figures in one table and looking at that.

Anyway, things like that are something I could contribute.

[pdeee]

It is worth a look at the DT site, they have just answered some of the queries that have been raised in this thread.

http://www.digitaltraction.net/mainsite/