The future of freeware

[bigvern]

One thing that yet prove to be the Achilles heel of the payware, is the continuing lack of routes for RW. Most that have been released such as my pair, the Port Road and a few others rest very firmly in the freeware camp. The only commercial routes that were mooted was a German route back in the days of RS, which the developer chucked the towel in and the Bristol to Exeter from Just Trains which also seems to have died a death. Other than GARL which is standalone and hardly a riveting prospect anyway, there's no others that I know of.

As freeware route builders we are constrained by resources - I can build the route but 3D modelling is not my forte, you've either "got it" or you haven't and I'm too old to learn.

There's only so many times you can run the default routes regardless of what the latest payware release might be and you can't keep churning out locos and rolling stock without at some point new routes to run them on. I'm sure I speak for the other freeware developers in that I am open to approaches from the payware side to licence use of my route(s) to go with their stock but it's going to cost at least a token royalty on each sale. However the payware crowd are not exactly knocking on the door at the idea of such a "partnership" either and the latest Class 50 release it has been issued without any scenarios at all - even for the default routes. With no disrespect to the author that really is lazy money.

I don't know how RS.com can overcome the route shortage. A good payware route along the lines of Cambrian Coast, LSE or Great Eastern for MSTS is what's needed. I got involved with two payware groups for MSTS and these came about because the team members had cut their teeth on the freeware, enough people with the diverse skills required were prepared to work together (for the most part!) and produce something over and above the freeware norm in return for a little (and unfortunately there's the rub - it was "little") reward. Now I fell out with 3DTS and BA disbanded but there's no sign of any of the former members of those or any other MSTS payware route factory having any inclination to repeat the process on RW. Some time ago I even offered direct to RS.com whether they would like me to look at producing something for them in the route department and to date have had no response.

So all that, combined with to be a honest a discernible lack of general interest in RW evident from the download count is why I'm currently reinstalling TS2010 - for all its warts - as at least you feel you are creating for a worthwhile user base.

[Ooveecouk]

I personally think all this time wasted by posting threads like this could be used to make valuable freeware content.

started with freeware,but when promise is shown, they are snapped up by the commercial side,i have no problem with that,good luck to them!

If this was directed at anyway towards Oovee, please be aware that David approached us and kindly offered the task of painting the TEAs.

(view are my own and not that of Oovee Ltd)

[RSderek]

Vern, that is my fault, your mail come at a time when I had more balls to juggle that I could manage.
It then slipped off my radar (have a week off and soon the emails mount up)

I have passed my contact info onto many people and I chat often over email/ msn/ pm's here and other forums with many. I do what I can in the time I have.
(note saturday morning)

I will reply.

regards

Derek

[markjudith]

There is room for both payware and freeware If we didn't have payware....well we wouldn't have Railworks...
The enjoyment the freeware creators have given me is the icing on the cake, a big thankyou to them.

Mark

[AndiS]

First of all, I have to agree 100% with Sly. It is not the payware creators who are the problem, and of course, also not the active freeware creators. It is the freeware not being created which is the problem.

Matt took some steps to find out the reasons, not sure what the follow-up or conclusions from that are. But for me, it is clear that while most of the MSTS fanbase stays with MSTS, they are not putting their effort into RW content. When and if they change over, they will bring their content along.

In the absence of (most of) the established MSTS creators, you see a small scene of new names, who spread their efforts over the whole range from scenery items to engines. This group is obviously slowly growing.

In my view, a major factor could be the fact that to really play RW, you can only run these not-so-exciting scenarios that can be created within the current constraints of the AI. These scenarios mostly live on the attractiveness of the rolling stock, which is often payware. This is what puts the payware to the foreground. This is also the reason why I immediately thought of an international rolling stock collection when I heard "Community Disk". If the signalling would not be so difficult, we would see more flawlessly signalled big stations. With them, and with intelligent AI, people would not be kept from creating interesting scenarios, which would not just focus on some mega-star, but simply recombine what is there in many interesting ways.

[Acorncomputer]

Hi Derek

Another one of my good ideas

A New Challenge

How about a RS.com initiative to sponsor/organise/endorse a group freeware route with the aim to create the best route yet for RailWorks with a basic route and content that anyone can use with default/specially created content but with accompanying payware add-ons for those who want more. A combined community and commercial project is not such a bad idea. RS.com have the speciality expertise to help with this.

End of another one of my good ideas

[johny]

...
BA disbanded but there's no sign of any of the former members of those or any other MSTS payware route factory having any inclination to repeat the process on RW...

In the case of BA that's one way of putting it, I would say "shafted", and for me it's really a case of once bitten twice shy.

John

[bigvern]

...
BA disbanded but there's no sign of any of the former members of those or any other MSTS payware route factory having any inclination to repeat the process on RW...

In the case of BA that's one way of putting it, I would say "shafted", and for me it's really a case of once bitten twice shy.

John

Agree 100% John, even the odd cheque for a fiver from Contact Sales seems to have dried up now and as for the residual work that went into Cambrian 2 from Cambrian 1, 3DTS never even sent me a copy of the new version let alone any royalties.

Anyhow guess it doesn't do to air the dirty washing in public but it is an insight for anyone thinking about the above as to why it's not happened with RW.

[ightenhill]

Balance seems to be the issue for me..

I have no objection to payware however I would expect similar stds of quality at similar prices.. At the moment we dont seem to have a balance with the way some items are priced... Or the quality. There seems to be an attitude from publishers of this is the going rate so charge it - they'll pay it ; regardless of the fact that product x from publisher y is far superior to product z.

As for routes, there are some excellent new routes available now as freeware, W&B and Port Road spring to mind but what is really missing is a long prototypical route.. I think were all fed up of waiting for JTs Exeter route. However the imbalance with stock (free v pay) is that a lot of scenarios (which seem to influence a lot of people) now require so much payware a lot of people Im guessing are becoming frustrated..

[simuk]

One thing that yet prove to be the Achilles heel of the payware, is the continuing lack of routes for RW. Most that have been released such as my pair, the Port Road and a few others rest very firmly in the freeware camp. The only commercial routes that were mooted was a German route back in the days of RS, which the developer chucked the towel in and the Bristol to Exeter from Just Trains which also seems to have died a death.

You forgot Newcastle to York Modern.

And Bristol to Exeter hasn't died a death.

[growler37]

I personally think all this time wasted by posting threads like this could be used to make valuable freeware content.

started with freeware,but when promise is shown, they are snapped up by the commercial side,i have no problem with that,good luck to them!

If this was directed at anyway towards Oovee, please be aware that David approached us and kindly offered the task of painting the TEAs.

(view are my own and not that of Oovee Ltd)

Hi
This thread is not directed to anyone,and to say this a wasted thread is nonsense,as you have a vested intrest as a comercial developer you are perfectly entitled to your oppinion,also i have 18 months worth of freeware projects on the go ATM!
But to return to the debate, the fact is the people behind the comercial products do not concern me at all,,its the same as buying a tin of baked beans,who grew, or canned them is irelevant ,the same applies here.
It is a fact that if its routes are wanted for RW, then the commercial side will not be the place to find them, this leaves freeware route creators,as vital i dont think anyone can dispute this, the freeware route creators have been and are producing some excellent products,the route building competition proves this with the quality,far exceding the default routes,so its a question of balance,because payware cannot exsist without freeware,but freeware can exist without payware.
Thanks to all for keeping it friendly.
Regards
Kevin

[growler37]

One thing that yet prove to be the Achilles heel of the payware, is the continuing lack of routes for RW. Most that have been released such as my pair, the Port Road and a few others rest very firmly in the freeware camp. The only commercial routes that were mooted was a German route back in the days of RS, which the developer chucked the towel in and the Bristol to Exeter from Just Trains which also seems to have died a death.

You forgot Newcastle to York Modern.

And Bristol to Exeter hasn't died a death.

Hi glad to here Bristol Exeter is still in production.
With respect Newcastle York modern is a very good modified default route.
Regards
Kevin

[precar]

Just a small mention I noticed the remark about to old to learn to start making content.
Make a start with Blender. See Blender thread.
Very easy to extrude any shape you want in a few minutes, then stick a relevant image on mesh.
Enough for for all types of content seen from a train including people made from cylinders.

Nearly 70 myself and knew nothing about making content until I got first computer about 10 years back.
See Blender thread and don't mind trying to help as regards basic content making.
Don't have railworks as yet (may get it as need to change to broadband from dial up), so can't help with exporting into railworks from Blender.

Barry

[AndiS]

Regarding "once bitten, twice shy", I think that this is another important piece of the puzzle.

Regarding the competition, Trainz made some initiative at some time where they only supported freeware teams that were actually working on a project (or something along these lines, my knowledge of Trainz history is shallow). Maybe RSC should do something like that, contest or not. They do support engine modellers using 3DSMax, I know. Extending a hand or two to the scenery modellers using 3DCanvas, Sketchup and Blender would certainly be a good thing. Likewise, some detailed information on how to get working, complex scenarios while preserving sanity. Not "RSC can do it"-style messages, but a step by step guide to AI crossing paths of other trains, for example.

[bigvern]

Well if Bristol to Exeter is not dead, it would be nice to have a progress report as that is the general impression with the lack of any news.

And yes with all due respect, Newcastle to York modern is essentially just a makeover of one of the default routes.

As regards Trainz, I know my one and only "official" contribution was rewarded with a tee-shirt and free copy, not much but better than nothing I guess. Not sure what those who contributed routes for the latest version were paid though I think I suspect the answer...

Trainz payware seems to inhabit a sort of twilight world. It exists on the peripheray of the freeware, sometimes with acrimonious exchanges of correspondence (TER?!!) in the official forums. Some seems to be done a commission basis i.e. an individual will request a group or individual makes a particular route or model and the price depends on whether said item is then made publically sellable or not.