mikesimpson wrote:
As for those who would not spend a few quid for the convenience of having such a DVD - words fail me, so that they can provide you with the content you think you are entitled to for nothing. Freeware is only free to the user, it is not free to the authors.
Mike
Mike, I don't care much about the money involved to buy scenery or stock or what ever concerning Railworks in this case.
And if "in some cases the authors of Assets have spent literally thousands of pounds on software such as 3D-Max"?
That they ask money for their work he.
RSDL does and some people on some sites does as wel not?
And people making freeware have to think twice before releasing it for FREE
You have a route with missing scenery or stock?
The author can give us some links where we can download it.
Hi,
Watching from the sidelines it is an interesting debate.
While I do think there needs to be a solution (and we have talked about it at length), I also think that route creators need to be more selective about what they incude in routes that are to be shared.
Of course this is just my opinion, but as my old art teacher was fond of telling me, 'you don't have to use all the colours in the box!' (said in a scottish accent)
If you are putting together a scene or small route for yourself or close friends then use what you like how you like. However, if you are going to share your route with the world think about what you add.
If you plan on using other peoples assets then seek permission to have them included from the asset creator.
BTW, this is not a solution, it is just a comment. If Route builders want to share and give users an enjoyable experience then they need to plan ahead and document what is needed.
As for the DVD (probably need more than 1!) idea, I think it is a solution and could work, but I'm not convienced it is the best one.
Also, many of the routes use assets from all over the internet and not just UKTS.
So, not much from me, but I am keeping an eye on what is said.
RSderek wrote:Hi,
Watching from the sidelines it is an interesting debate.
While I do think there needs to be a solution (and we have talked about it at length), I also think that route creators need to be more selective about what they incude in routes that are to be shared.
Of course this is just my opinion, but as my old art teacher was fond of telling me, 'you don't have to use all the colours in the box!' (said in a scottish accent)
If you are putting together a scene or small route for yourself or close friends then use what you like how you like. However, if you are going to share your route with the world think about what you add.
If you plan on using other peoples assets then seek permission to have them included from the asset creator.
BTW, this is not a solution, it is just a comment. If Route builders want to share and give users an enjoyable experience then they need to plan ahead and document what is needed.
As for the DVD (probably need more than 1!) idea, I think it is a solution and could work, but I'm not convienced it is the best one. Also, many of the routes use assets from all over the internet and not just UKTS.
So, not much from me, but I am keeping an eye on what is said.
regards
Derek
I do like your art teacher.
But I don't think I need some Japanse scenery the next few years
bigvern wrote:I don't think the DVD is a particularly good idea, to be honest, as it's immediately out of date and only good for UKTS hosted items - not the other stuff scattered round the world.
Some sort of self checking central file repository is still the way to go. Now whether RS.com should be in the lead on this is open to debate - in the end it is their file structure, admittedly inherited from Kuju, that is to some extent causing this problem. With MSTS there was no choice but to zip up the required objects as each route sat in its own folder. Yes, there was duplication even of default items but we didn't have this mess.
I think it somehow comes back to the very beginning of RS when, from what I can gather, EA wanted to 1. Keep much tighter control of content distribution - bring it "in house" in effect and 2. Thought most of the add-ons were going to come from the payware side of things with freeware/hobby developers very much an afterthought and that people buying a route etc. would be getting a complete package from the particular developer. I bet the last thing they considered was what happens if Joe Bungle creates a freeware route in his spare time and has assets from 30 different developers in it.
Of course "1" never happened. EA (and Kuju) rapidly lost interest after release and once they realised there was not going to be a rush of payware routes in the first 12 months. So now is RS.com's turn to shine. In some respects, they already have a distribution system in place - it's called STEAM (excuse caps). Surely there must be a precedent with other games for having approved add-ons and assets that are actually free of charge? Even if a small subscription was required (one reason Auran started the DLS was to keep a steady trickle of revenue coming in) all the elements are in place including presumably checking if you have the required assets on your computer already.
Not good news for Mattie and his site if this were to happen I know, but we are talking practical solutions here and Steam, or an offshoot, seems to fit the bill. It would also serve to get even the freeware a much wider audience than it perhaps receives at the moment.
This is, by far, the best solution. The DVD thing is very much anchored in the past, DVD's, mail, why not Pony Express while we are at it... We are in 2010, everybody is on dsl, and some of us even have fiber optics connections (I do...). We have to live with our time.
And if Steam isnt the solution, why not pack the 2010 or whatever year/months/week assets as a big torrent file rather than sending dvd's? This is how rom files are distributed in the emulation community, and so far, i have always found sources to download... Another thing, the dvd thing is very much UK centered and as Keith mentionned, there are assets coming from all around Europe... Many creators do not even speak english. Using the sole "dvd approved assets" would result in standardized routes... Frankly this not really appealing...
We DO need an Auran DSL like thing, even if it's just as a backup. Steam is there, Derek you know what to do...
bigvern wrote:I don't think the DVD is a particularly good idea, to be honest, as it's immediately out of date and only good for UKTS hosted items - not the other stuff scattered round the world.
Some sort of self checking central file repository is still the way to go. Now whether RS.com should be in the lead on this is open to debate - in the end it is their file structure, admittedly inherited from Kuju, that is to some extent causing this problem. With MSTS there was no choice but to zip up the required objects as each route sat in its own folder. Yes, there was duplication even of default items but we didn't have this mess.
I think it somehow comes back to the very beginning of RS when, from what I can gather, EA wanted to 1. Keep much tighter control of content distribution - bring it "in house" in effect and 2. Thought most of the add-ons were going to come from the payware side of things with freeware/hobby developers very much an afterthought and that people buying a route etc. would be getting a complete package from the particular developer. I bet the last thing they considered was what happens if Joe Bungle creates a freeware route in his spare time and has assets from 30 different developers in it.
Of course "1" never happened. EA (and Kuju) rapidly lost interest after release and once they realised there was not going to be a rush of payware routes in the first 12 months. So now is RS.com's turn to shine. In some respects, they already have a distribution system in place - it's called STEAM (excuse caps). Surely there must be a precedent with other games for having approved add-ons and assets that are actually free of charge? Even if a small subscription was required (one reason Auran started the DLS was to keep a steady trickle of revenue coming in) all the elements are in place including presumably checking if you have the required assets on your computer already.
Not good news for Mattie and his site if this were to happen I know, but we are talking practical solutions here and Steam, or an offshoot, seems to fit the bill. It would also serve to get even the freeware a much wider audience than it perhaps receives at the moment.
This is, by far, the best solution. The DVD thing is very much anchored in the past, DVD's, mail, why not Pony Express while we are at it... We are in 2010, everybody is on dsl, and some of us even have fiber optics connections (I do...). We have to live with our time.
And if Steam isnt the solution, why not pack the 2010 or whatever year/months/week assets as a big torrent file rather than sending dvd's? This is how rom files are distributed in the emulation community, and so far, i have always found sources to download... Another thing, the dvd thing is very much UK centered and as Keith mentionned, there are assets coming from all around Europe... Many creators do not even speak english. Using the sole "dvd approved assets" would result in standardized routes... Frankly this not really appealing...
We DO need an Auran DSL like thing, even if it's just as a backup. Steam is there, Derek you know what to do...
I'd be glad to pay a little fee to get to that server when i miss assets on my downloaded routes, a bit something like UKTS is doing but there wouldn't be any downloads, installs, etc, as steam installs the assets needed automatically. I am pretty sure a solution could be found.
But i am sure that if a centralized download station was to be done, it should be a first party task as UKTS is an english website, (very well) maintained for english, by englishmen, in english....
Julien wrote:I'd be glad to pay a little fee to get to that server when i miss assets on my downloaded routes, a bit something like UKTS is doing but there wouldn't be any downloads, installs, etc, as steam installs the assets needed automatically. I am pretty sure a solution could be found.
But i am sure that if a centralized download station was to be done, it should be a first party task as UKTS is an english website, (very well) maintained for english, by englishmen, in english....
Hahaha oui, oui, je sais
(Yes I know )
A lot of people have downloaded routes already in use...
So, I wonder who cares about freeware or payware, or licenses etc. etc.
Only those people who are selling I guess.
The case imho is simple: the author has a route with a list of links with the missing bits.
Last edited by theokus on Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Julien wrote:This is, by far, the best solution. The DVD thing is very much anchored in the past, DVD's, mail, why not Pony Express while we are at it... We are in 2010, everybody is on dsl, and some of us even have fiber optics connections (I do...). We have to live with our time.
Well I think you need to step out into the real world once in a while.
"Everybody" is not on dsl. I go out with UKTS on the roadshows and I have met many people who have no internet connection but picked up MSTS and Rail Simulator as a boxed product in shops. They had no idea that content was available online and were astounded at the MSTS add-ons we were showing. We have had questions on the UKTS support system where people have bought Railworks and have no internet connection so can't activate it.
At one show last year I met a gentleman who had bought the Making Tracks MSTS route London & South East in PC World. He had problems with it that were solved with the patches Making Tracks issued online but since he had no internet access he had no way of getting those patches.
These points were presented to Paul Jackson (CEO RS.COM) and he listened but reiterated that the online distribution model was the way forward.
There are members here who access the site and forums via mobile phone connectivity hence the limits on screenshot sizes to limit their bandwidth penalties.
If I was to take your argument to the extreme then I would ban multi-part spanned zips from this site since I have a 20MB cable connection that I can max out so massive files are not a problem for me - Visual Studio 2008 was 3.5GB and that came down in 1 go. That would stop a lot of tickets on the ticketing system and posts on the forums from people unable to make spanned zips work.
Anybody who creates an asset has the right to refuse others to modify / redistribute it.
To some extent route builders who wish to make sure there route is simple for downloaded need to make sure that before they commit to using an asset they have permission to re-distribute it.
That's my policy, if it's "conditionware" rather than actual FREEware I have the right to refuse to use it at all.
We don't want to put people off uploading assets and a disclaimer that there upload can never be removed might put some off
Who's "we"? I personally would LOVE to put off the suffering sensitive artistes, if you want to control how I use something you're giving me, then I don't want it, keep it to yourself.
if Joe Bungle creates a freeware route in his spare time and has assets from 30 different developers in it.
I also think that route creators need to be more selective about what they include in routes that are to be shared.
Biggest trouble with that is the Bill Burnett factor - a man with amazing talent who is a self admitted computer dummy, starts playing around making an MSTS route using zillions of custom objects he downloaded, purely for amusement with no intention of ever distributing it because he never thought there would be any demand for it. Suddenly everyone wanted it, he had no idea what he had used or how to package it, he got some help and Sea View turned out to be THE most popular route for MSTS. It would be good if everyone planned ahead, but sometimes they don't because they're just fooling around at first.
My thinking on this is it's good depending on how it's done - I created a single asset pack for the PO&CM, anyone who has already downloaded the asset pack for version 1 of the route will NOT need to download it again for version 2 or version 3, saves a lot of downloading. When version 4 comes out there will be some changes and additions to the asset pack, but I'm keeping track of what I'm doing, and creating a new "update" pack alongside the new asset pack as I go along. The idea is that anyone who never downloaded any previous version or the asset pack will download the new asset pack, anyone who already has the asset pack will only need to download the smaller upgrade pack.
That's the real answer to all this, the route developers need to make a separate asset pack with a list - if you already have all these assets you don't need the asset pack, if you're missing only a few you can download those few, if you're missing most of them download this asset pack. The asset creators need to automatically include permission for their stuff to be repackaged and redistributed in that manner, if they don't then don't use their assets. Payware of course is another issue, the description of the route that you see BEFORE you download it needs to specify "requires Isle of Wight" or whatever.
Julien wrote:This is, by far, the best solution. The DVD thing is very much anchored in the past, DVD's, mail, why not Pony Express while we are at it... We are in 2010, everybody is on dsl, and some of us even have fiber optics connections (I do...). We have to live with our time.
Well I think you need to step out into the real world once in a while.
"Everybody" is not on dsl. I go out with UKTS on the roadshows and I have met many people who have no internet connection but picked up MSTS and Rail Simulator as a boxed product in shops. They had no idea that content was available online and were astounded at the MSTS add-ons we were showing. We have had questions on the UKTS support system where people have bought Railworks and have no internet connection so can't activate it.
At one show last year I met a gentleman who had bought the Making Tracks MSTS route London & South East in PC World. He had problems with it that were solved with the patches Making Tracks issued online but since he had no internet access he had no way of getting those patches.
These points were presented to Paul Jackson (CEO RS.COM) and he listened but reiterated that the online distribution model was the way forward.
There are members here who access the site and forums via mobile phone connectivity hence the limits on screenshot sizes to limit their bandwidth penalties.
If I was to take your argument to the extreme then I would ban multi-part spanned zips from this site since I have a 20MB cable connection that I can max out so massive files are not a problem for me - Visual Studio 2008 was 3.5GB and that came down in 1 go. That would stop a lot of tickets on the ticketing system and posts on the forums from people unable to make spanned zips work.
So it's take it or leave it...
Yes indeed, a real man with a real vision.
(I am sorry)
And no worries, I'll shut up for now.
I think we can easily have the best of both worlds.
First of all, such a community disk would not prevent anyone downloading or uploading anything anywhere. If you are on broadband, and if the sites which have the things you need have a clever system in place like UKTS, and if the route builder created a complete and up-to-date list of the requirements (or you create it using RW Tools, which only supports UKTS), then no problem with the current state of things. The existence of no DVD in the world will change anything for you.
However, if your broadband costs more than the DVD, then you will be glad to have that option. And there was some recent talk about New Zealand internet connection, and I live in the middle of Europe and still would order such a DVD, and save money doing so.
Also, I think the label itself on the project has some value by itself. You can always upload a little something here and there, with vague words in the README. But if you receive an email "Do you want ... included in the Community Disk 2010?", then you get to a diverge: Do I want this version in this shape to be the version for the next year? Am I prepared to have it used by anyone freely, forever (non-profit, with attribution)? Or do I want to stay off the next rush of freeware scenarios and routes?
The cool thing is that you do this decision yourself silently, no debates on forums etc. You just answer yes or no, e.g., my making a tick near your entries in the library, if Matt expands the database by this feature. I understand he will create the invitations automatically anyway. In terms of implementation, the easiest thing would be for Matt to send everyone a list of IDs of his items and everyone sends back same mail with the IDs deleted which should not go on the disk. Just some thought ...
Btw., in theory, you could have a DVD edition for each season, i.e., 4 per year. In practice, we will all be very happy to see one roll on with the perspective of another one some time later.
Also, if you stay with the 1-year interval, and you only include new and modified items, you may need fewer disks. People will need to by two disk, but they will get twice the content (minus first versions of updated content, which will not be so much).
RSderek wrote:Hi,
Watching from the sidelines it is an interesting debate .... So, not much from me, but I am keeping an eye on what is said.
regards
Derek
But then I also stated the "combined" exact same comments ...... 3+ years ago Derek??? ..... and look what happened to that!! Shall we agree to say "Nothing", and that no thought was given to this at all.
I would be happy to give my time up, or what time I have left when not working on RWDecal to assist in the database design and web implementation. PHP and MySQL Databases (the backend to UKTS) are my line of work so I am happy to donate my skills to this cause.
Jim
TrainSimDev.com The community dedicated to those who create content for any Train Simulator. Includes:Free downloads via torrent or browser, forum browsable by all, membership by invitation (any member can invite someone)
