Upgrading my 'Sussex Scot' scenario - some questions

[USRailFan]

I intend to do an update of my 'Sussex Scot' scenario for WCML North. In regard to that, I've got a few questions

1) Is there really a Class 86/2 available in Railworks? I used to think the one bundled with WCML North was an 86/2 and the DLC ones 86/4, but I see that the IC Swallow and BR Blue repaints of the WCML North one are labelled 86/4.... If not I guess I'll switch to Dave B's model.

2) Does anyone have info on schedules for freight/mail trans on the northern WCML in the autumn of 1991? And which locos/freight cars would typically be seen in these?

3) Does anyone have any exact info on loco-hauled cross-country services in this period? The source I used gave the formation of the 'Sussex Scot' as BSO - 5 TSO - RLO (all air-con Mk2s) but judging from photos I've seen recently it seems that a MK1 BG should be included as well?

4) What would be typical loco types found inhabiting the various yards/TMDs at this time (Polmadie, Motherwell, Kingmoor, Carlisle)? 37s are obvious, but what else? 47s I guess, possibly 56s? Were there any 86s stabled at Glasgow Central, possibly?
Also with regards to the varioous yards etc what would be typical rakes to be found? I'd guess Mk2s and Mk3s at Polmadie, obviously, but what about freight? FSA/FTAs and TTAs would be pretty obvious I guess... VGAs possibly? What about coal hoppers?

[malkymackay]

I'll try to answer to the best of my knowledge:

1) The WCML Default 86 is an 86/4. There is an BR Blue 86/2 in the DLC pack, though I'm not aware of any IC liveried repaints for it. It would look slightly out of place, as it still has the headcode display.

2) I don't currently have any freight schedules for that period, though I'm looking. I'm currently waiting on a 1977 working timetable - more my time period

3) Wpuldn't surprise me to find a BG in the formation, though no first class is a little unusual.

4) The usual suspects for locos would be 08, 20, 26, 37, 47 & 86. You could get away with 31 around Carlisle - they never really ventured much into Scotland. A Class 86 could be used as Station pilot at Glasgow Central, to release incoming locos & to haul ECS to/from Polmadie. The sidings at Polmadie would be home to Mk1, Mk2(aircon & non aircon) & a handful of Mk3 - you could have the sleeper sitting there through the day. As for freight stock - most of the available air-braked stock would be acceptable. Anything in Speedlink, Sector Grey or Departmental 'Dutch' liveries would sit nicely with the time period.

Hope that's of some help.

[USRailFan]

The site is used as background info for schedules and formation is http://www.1s76.com/1S76%201991.htm - this gives the formation as BSO, 5 TSO, RLF (not RLO) - I understand the latter ones were late-model FOs equipped with some sort of catering. As I said though, based on various photos I've seen this listed formation might not be 100% correct - there's even a photo linked from the site itself (http://andygibbs.zenfolio.com/p33338629 ... #h314309bf) where you clearly see a Mk1-type carriage at the front of the train - I guess a BG, judging by the number of windows, and door placement?
So 20s and 26s were still around in 1991... That's interesting. Freightliners were electric-hauled back then as well, I'd guess - would other freight trains be diesel hauled back then as well, or would 86s (or 90s) be seen hauling general freight as well? What would the MGR trains have had in this period, still 47s?

[malkymackay]

I've looked at that site before, lot's of nice snippets. The Mk1 behind the loco in the linked pic is indeed a BG.
Class 26 were not withdrawn until 1993 & there are still Class 20's knocking about. Scottish MGR trains could be seen with anything from pairs of 20's, single or 2 26's to 37's. Eastfield & Haymarket had batches of the 20's & 26's that were fitted with Slow Speed Control specifically for the MGR workings. General freight might have diesel or electric haulage, dependent on destination/routing & what was available By the early 90's most of the earlier AC Electrics had gone, as had most of the diesel classes that would have been common only 10 years earlier.

[USRailFan]

One more thing:
From what I've understodd, the orientation of LHCS/HSTs in 1991 basically followed the same principle as today on both WCML and ECML - i.e. DVT/rear powercar towards London, then 1st class, buffet, 2nd class and loco/front powercar towards Glasgow/Edinburgh?
(I don't think any WCML trains changed direction underways? Or did they?)

[malkymackay]

Not too sure on the orientation of the stock, though I have seen a pic of a HST at Carlisle with the first class at the Glasgow end. I'm trying to get hold of an appropriate WTT from the early 90's, so may be able to help more if I can secure that.

[FoggyMorning]

One more thing:
From what I've understodd, the orientation of LHCS/HSTs in 1991 basically followed the same principle as today on both WCML and ECML - i.e. DVT/rear powercar towards London, then 1st class, buffet, 2nd class and loco/front powercar towards Glasgow/Edinburgh?
(I don't think any WCML trains changed direction underways? Or did they?)

It's not unheard of for southbound trains to go into Birmingham New Street the long way round via the Grand Junction route, and approach from the south, which has the effect of turning the whole train set around. I don't see how this would affect operations on the northern part of the route, although you might see the odd "reversed" set

[USRailFan]

HST at Carlisle

Is this a regular occurence? I've always thought that all HST-operated Cross Country-services would operate via Carstairs, Edinburgh, Newcastle, York and then onto the XC route? Or have there been XC services operated by HSTs that used the WCML south of Carstairs as well?

[Drogba11CFC]

I believe that some services between Birmingham/Crewe/Liverpool/Euston and Scotland were HSTs.

Also, some Cross-Country services in the 1990s operated via Carlisle, normally the ones via Manchester.

[Kromaatikse]

Additionally, diversions were sometimes done from the ECML via the Newcastle-Carlisle line.

[USRailFan]

Also, some Cross-Country services in the 1990s operated via Carlisle, normally the ones via Manchester.

So some of these would have been HSTs? I was of the impression that these would be LHCS which changed locos at Crewe or Preston

[FoggyMorning]

If I remember rightly (and I may well not be) South coast - Liverpool/Manchester/Glasgow were usually loco hauled whereas South Coast - Newcastle/Edinburgh tended to be HSTs. Some HSTs definitely did run the west coast services, at least for Liverpool/Manchester bound trains.

[malkymackay]

Just recieved a copy of a 92/93 WTT for the line & there are a few HST services, including ones that worked from Edinburgh to Glasgow Central via Carstairs & then ran down to Carlisle. Also looks like a lot of the freight was diesel-hauled too.

[USRailFan]

If you've got any more detailed info (especially about timetabling of the freights) feel free to send a PM

[Drogba11CFC]

Also, some Cross-Country services in the 1990s operated via Carlisle, normally the ones via Manchester.

So some of these would have been HSTs? I was of the impression that these would be LHCS which changed locos at Crewe or Preston

The "Royal Scot" driver's eye DVD has the commentary mention a late-running HST (The Devon Scot) holding up the train.