Route Building Too Hard?

[Darpor]

Good morning all.

Various threads pop up from time to time where people are having problems with route building. The problems\causes can be over a wide range of subjects from the actual conception of a route when creating a template, trying to include DEM data or general route building issues like track laying and signalling. The general perception always seems to be that everything is too hard when it really isn't, something which is constantly brought to my attention by the flurry of private messages I get asking me to create a route, signal a route or even fully scenerise a route, something which I haven't got time for and I doubt nobody else has!

Now, this thread isn't for all of your questions/problems as generally, I feel each individual problem deserves it's own thread in order to get an informed response. What I would like to see in this thread is a discussion, if possible from people who have tried to start creating a route but have decided that they just cannot do it and the reasons why and what stage they "fell". The community is a knowledgebase and can provide an answer to the majority of things but not if the user is unwilling to try for the fear of something that can be easily overcome.

[bigvern]

I don't think it's necessarily too hard Darren, it's getting information for new users in one location so easily accessible - the concurrent thread from the guy wanting to do Maidenhead to Marlow is a case in point.

There's certainly far more information about route building in RS/RW than we ever had for MSTS but I think it's important for new builders to realise you can't just breeze into it and it's a relatively advanced facet of the hobby regardless of your skill level.

Perhaps there needs to be more in the Help files and/or on RS.com's own Wiki. However certain questions like "what is DEM" or "what are markers" to me seem to indicate a lack of pre planning or a bit of research beforehand and coming to the forums with those sort of really basic questions is likely to get curt answers or be ignored. At the end of the day there are no route building schools and the process is largely self taught, either you "get it" or you don't.

We certainly need more people building routes and far be it from me to put potential candidates off but the first qualification is to be utterly self reliant and get stuck into exploring the process yourself. We will always try and share knowledge on advanced issues but as I said in the other thread, most of us are too busy with our own projects to spoonfeed from the beginner level. I don't want that to come over as a sleight or rude towards newcomers but it's best to be honest about the situation!

[gypbrc]

I taught myself route building in RS. I bought RS two years ago now and after playing about and getting some sounds and whatnot I downloaded the dev docs from the website, read them all and then proceeded to build a small route which ended in failure. I tried again a fair few times, just practicing really and learning as I went along. The great thing about route building yourself is that you also learn exactly how the sim works; with all of the folder structure etc... So now I can have a reasonably good understanding of just how the game fits together and works. I bought Railworks and was able to start 'proper' route, which didn't look like Hornby layouts with track on a flat background and have been building since.

So I'd say the whole process has taken easily a year, to the point where now I'm reasonably happy with what I'm building. I got advice from lurking around here of other route builders; so this place has been just as valuable as the dev docs to understanding the game. Building itself is just artistic license a lot of the time; something which you either have or don't have I guess. But even those that don't have much of it can admire other people screen shots and see how assets can be combined to make new ones etc...

I think the only thing that puts people off once they have grasped the basics is scenery placement. Track laying is relatively quick; and you can lay the track for a 20 mile route in a few hours if you wish, but to then scenery that 20 mile route takes a monumental amount of time in comparison. I think have patience and stick at it should be the motto, and if you can knock out routes even half as good as W&B, Cresston, WCML North, SWW (to name a few) then it's worth it.

[cwgaskell]

Hi,

I agree that it is very easy to create a route with all the bits and pieces, but it is even easier to screw it up, especially points and related signals.

After a very long time using trial and error, I have finally cracked it (I hope), and all the points and signals finally work consistentley and as I hoped they were going to work.

I never found a central place to discover the key do-s and don't-s.

For what it is worth, when it comes to points and signals, my basic rules are now:

a) for each individual set of points, always make the characteristics homogeneous, with particular care being taken if the <weld> option has to be used. It really is very easy to end up with a single set of points that has multiple speed limits, multiple ballast types, line types, etc. I found it quite amazing how wierd and wonderful oddities could result - mainly related to signals - when the characteristics of a set of points were not homogeneous.

b) for sets of signals adjacent to each other do not have links on one signal overlap those of other signals.

Believe it or not, there is no guidance that I have found that shouts out to users as to what not to do, and the two simple rules above cleared all my signalling problems.

I once had two trains heading north each on their own track, one was going to cross the other track into a siding.
The AI worked beautifully, but the signals did exactly the opposite to what they should do. Signals that were supposed to be Red were Green, and those supposed to be Green were Red. I sent RS a video of it but no-one replied. I fixed this by simply making characteristics of the double-slip they were due to cross over to be homogeneous (I think it was simply the ballast that I changed, but I may have changed something else also).

I hope this helps someone

All the best

Colin

[sanyix]

It not so hard, but needs **** much time.

Maybe i can be easier with some random scenery item placing features.
For example another game's editor had features like this:

select the objects what you want to place, then set the placing of each object from x elevation to y elevation and/or selecting a region, then select the probability of placing objects, random rotation step and interval, random scaling interval.

The krstool, can do nearly the same in rw/rs, but for a train simulation it would be better if this random placing tool have a "distance from tracks" option too (because here you need only to place objects near the tracks, and with this it's easy to set the tool to place full 3d scenery nearly, and 2d camera facing objects further.
But the problem with krstool is: not built in in rw , and because a bug it resets all of resizeable objects (water tile, tunnel hole, for example) to default settings.

[RSderek]

most of us are too busy with our own projects to spoonfeed from the beginner level

Is it not all relative?

I've been using max for 15 years and there are folks out there that make me look like a beginner.

Small steps, and realistic expectations.
Build that short branch line before setting off to recreate Manchester to York.
Learn the tools, what they can and can not do, seek help and take heart in the encouragement given by other community members.
But most of all enjoy it, if you are not enjoying it then i suggest doing something else.

regards

Derek

[hertsbob]

Very wise words there, Derek.

Cheers

Bob

[partyspiritz]

I am very proud to have become a route builder. And have had some good help from Peter Holton. Yes it was hard but the main thing is I enjoy it.


I have also had lots of help from the forum. The Bacup Branch is real place with its own buildings. Loco's & Stock

And when finished it will run in both sim's


Yes it is hard but if you have a problem there is help out there.



Regards



John

[TransportSteve]

I would heartily agree with what Vern stated and the following posts by Rich and Derek. At the end of the day, if you have already got the route building bug, albeit from Rail Simulator, Trainz or MSTS, then you have some knowledge of what is to be expected, unfortunately though, many people lack patience and free time, they seem awfully keen to start something and then give up after 5 minutes 'cos they haven't read the manuals or exploited the wealth of knowledge on here, and other forums, by using the search button function, etc.
Having been a beta tester on Trainz for the last 5 years, or so, I also think that one or two new-ish route builders on here are releasing layouts before being properly beta-tested. Personally speaking, I don't think many newbies know anyone within the community who has the necessary knowledge and experience to what to look for and properly test something before it goes out to the masses. They then receive a myriad of moans because they've forgotten to do something, made lots of mistakes, or they're missing content on the map, etc, etc. I don't know if this has anything to do with personal pride, or, whatever, but, if some of us non-route builders - veterans of train simming, obviously, who have the time and the experience with route beta-testing - should raise their hands if they have the time to volunteer. Maybe, some route builders aren't too bothered with receiving complaints, but, I'm positive that most members would appreciate a thousand words of praise, rather than groans, it's good for the soul, so they tell me. It would also alleviate the embarrassment and awkwardness of having to do lots and lots of corrections and release multiple versions of the same map until they get the layout properly released, this obviously, wastes time, effort and bandwidth on the UKTS download area, irritates the hell out of the end-user and makes them wonder whether to bother downloading any routes that creator does in the future. Sad, but, true.

Cheerz. Transport Steve.

[Neptune50006]

IMO the success or failure of a route building project depends a lot on the planning and preparation. If it's a real route, either modern day or historic, do as much research as you can before you lay one piece of track. I know it's not as much fun as getting stuck in and starting the route, but believe me it will pay dividends later. I have recently taken the bold step to rip up 90% of the track I had laid for the Lynton & Barnstaple and relay it using RW Decal and the knowledge I now have of the route after all the research I have done on it. This is all down to me being too keen to get on with it in the first place.

Even if the route is fictional a certain amount of forward planning is needed. Have a clear idea of what you want to achieve with the route. What features do you want to incorporate into it and how are they going to fit together to produce a believable route.

Also as others have said, go and practice with all of the route building tools that are available to you until you are totally confident in their use.

Above all have fun and don't give up when things get frustrating, and believe me they will at times. Just walk away from it and come back when you're in a better frame of mind.

Oh, and one last thing. BACK UP, BACK UP, BACK UP.

[Acorncomputer]

Forward planning is important.

This will also include a few thoughts about how the route will be packaged and distributed. Careful use of freeware and payware assets is needed to ensure that the user does not have to spend an arm and a leg on additional software to get it running or spend days searching for assets from multiple libraries. I also try to ensure that the main free roam scenario and at least one other scenario included with the route uses only default assets so at least the user can open up the route without being told that assets are missing.

[AndyM77]

It's not "hard" as such, more frustrating and fiddly at times, particularly if you've got steep gradients on the route. Personally speaking, my little unreleased projects that I mess around with never really see the light of day because I either get fed up trying to make them look at least semi realistic, or think that "z" user will moan that this bit is unprototypical, "x" that the route isn't worth the download, etc...

It's one of the reasons why my updated "Upndown" never appeared, along with the fact that the 'rebuilt' version would've no longer been in the spirit of the competition.

I think people should give it a go and simply stick with it, create a single line route, or a simple short area if a whole route seems daunting. Use that time to experiment and not get frustrated too much when the rails don't do what you want them to do, (i.e sharp 45° angles) and if something really unexpected happens ask here or elsewhere for help.

[longbow]

In response to a similar line of thought on content creation I maintain a list of tutorial and links for 3D Canvas here http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic. ... 12&t=99003 - perhaps somebody would like to do something similar for route building?

[theokus]

Good morning all.

Various threads pop up from time to time where people are having problems with route building. The problems\causes can be over a wide range of subjects from the actual conception of a route when creating a template, trying to include DEM data or general route building issues like track laying and signalling. The general perception always seems to be that everything is too hard when it really isn't, something which is constantly brought to my attention by the flurry of private messages I get asking me to create a route, signal a route or even fully scenerise a route, something which I haven't got time for and I doubt nobody else has!

Now, this thread isn't for all of your questions/problems as generally, I feel each individual problem deserves it's own thread in order to get an informed response. What I would like to see in this thread is a discussion, if possible from people who have tried to start creating a route but have decided that they just cannot do it and the reasons why and what stage they "fell". The community is a knowledgebase and can provide an answer to the majority of things but not if the user is unwilling to try for the fear of something that can be easily overcome.

Lack of creativity.
Lack of patience.
It takes too long to get a few km. with scenery.
Lack of textures (terrain).
I can not keep up. (lazy ?)
Takes me too long to find the right objects in de fly-out-menu (mayor problem for me).
I admire the rest who can and does!

[Retro]

I get a great deal of pleasure from Route Building. When I look back on The Central Route I have slowly been able to master most of the Processes and Tools. I have done a lot of going back to the areas when I first started and didn't have a clue what I was doing and made significant improvements on them. It has taken a long time however. I was able at the start with Rail Simulator to make my own Route Template and Track Rule which paid dividends later on. I have to say that if not for the help and encouragement from people on these forums I probably would have given up. I found Signaling difficult at first but got a lot of help from the relative section of the Forums. The fact that others posted pictures as they worked on their own Routes certainly helped and a lot of discussion has taken place on individual Route Topics. Giving encouragement to someone just starting by making a simple comment or suggestion on their Topic helps enormously, (It certainly helped me) and doesn't take much time. Route building has a fairly steep learning curve and it is continuous I am still discovering things now. I could never manage the Route Building process in MSTS and I find the RailWorks Route Editor much easier. I have made mistakes and lost a week of work on a few occasions and had some odd problems but have always learned something from these events.
As pointed out by Geoff I have also discovered that some forward planning including making lists of things to do is essential. Keeping track of the Assets used and watching how many you have on each tile plus frequent testing and checking ensures that things stay under control.
The satisfaction of running a Scenario on your own Route is second to none IMHO. Also the pleasure in watching the progress of another builders Route can be quite enthralling. A wonderful hobby indeed.
Kind regards James