Compromises For Long Routes

[paulz6]

Hi Geoff,

The new scenario tools provided by RS.com are a significant improvement. Proper timetabled scenarios are now a reality. This is good progress.
I think it is wrong to say that all operations and signaling is in the hands of the route builder. The AI sub system is apparently still weak at single line operations. My own interpretations of the WIKI, means that I would have to have a lot of specially scripted signals to properly signal the Woodhead for example. Possible reversing points makes it difficult. Real life makes it hard too - is that really only a few yards between 4-aspect signals? How did it really work back then?
It is difficult to expect a generic program to understand operational aspects. I am not convinced that RW signaling is a good and as easy to use as it possibly could be.
A route builder needs to get it right, otherwise the scenario creators stand no chance. Let's not blame a route builder when it should work though.
I will only believe that it is half a dozen on one side, and a bakers dozen on the other when the default routes are flawless.

[mikesimpson]

>Perhaps also an ability to save a scenario at any number of points in the scenario and then be able to go back and play >any one of those saves as and when you wish would also be a huge help.

Hi Geoff,

You can do this easily enough:-
1. Run RailWorks in a window (preferably on a PC with 2 monitors)
2. Open Windows Explorer and navigate to your Route\Scenario folder
3. When you press F2 to save your Scenario it will be saved as CurrentSave.xml in the Scenario folder, rename it to CurrentSave1.xml
4. You can do this several times within your Scenario, renaming each save with a new name (you can name them whatever you like, to make it easier to locate a starting spot if you wish) so that you then have multiple saves in the folder.

Then when you wish to rerun from any particular point, just rename the version you wish to run as CurrentSave.xml and run RailWorks again and it will start from there.

This option has been in RS_Tools/RW_Tools for a couple of years now, but just as easy to use Windows Explorer for this particular operation.

Mike.

[Acorncomputer]

Hi Mike

I was really musing on the ability to have a saved scenario bank within RailWorks itself so that the various saves could be presented as a list to choose from.

With respect to scenario creation, I will need to experiment to see if it is possible to save at a point where things have gone right, change the scenario instructions when a fault is found and then run the scenario from the saved point or another earlier point (as per Mike's instructions). Will the saved scenario work even though later instructions have been changed since the save was made?

I will experiment with this later on. If it does work then it will save many hours of re-running amended scenarios to test later stages.

[RSderek]

Will you thank him for creating a route in the first place? He has created a few free of charge. Do not dismiss an old hand for his contributions though.
We all fight for the future direction!

Hi, I agree those that create and share should be thanked by all who enjoy it.
However...

Adam, offers to help
Adam downloads the route, looks at it and finds the problem, and reports back with comments and pictures.
Adam offers further help by fixing the problem.
Adam fixes the problem and gives it back working.

All of that took a few hours of Adam's time, surely that is worth a 'thanks' or 'cheers' somewhere in that chain yes?

Now, where else in life would you get that?
Most folks in real life say thank you for someone holding a door open or picking up something they have dropped.

I just hope the route gets shared so you get to enjoy Vern's work in a functioning version.

regards

Derek

[Acorncomputer]

Hi all

As I write relatively few scenarios there is still much to learn and I have only just realised that it is possible to place scenario specific markers in a scenario and then use the invisible (to the player) waypoints to guide the train over the exact route using the markers placed in that scenario as well as the embedded route markers. I need not worry too much then about embedding markers everywhere in the route as they can be added at will when required by the scenario writer.

One possible improvement to the new waypoints feature is that they do not form trigger points for messages. You can trigger messages using normal markers but they show up as destinations in the task list when not really necessary. Giving waypoints an option to display a message or not when they are (invisibly) reached would also be a neat feature to scenario writing.

[paulz6]

Hi Derek,

Lets not blow this out of proportion. My original comment was supposed to be light-hearted cheeky response to what I am sure was an originally intended light-hearted cheeky comment. I am sorry you felt you had to snip the comment into a way that makes it look like I was making a stinging attack. I'll blame a poor choice of words on my part.

Of course, it is nice to get explicit thanks when we help people out of the goodness of our own heart; and it is not as forthcoming as it should be in all areas of life.

The signalling is a complex issue though, and I certainly think people prototypically signalling a prototypical route will have to be prepared to create some custom signal scripting to ensure good operations, especially where there may be mainline shunting movements. I'm sure everyone would appreciate some in-depth understanding in this area. A route has to be signalled right to allow the scenario creators to do their work.

[paulz6]

With respect to scenario creation, I will need to experiment to see if it is possible to save at a point where things have gone right, change the scenario instructions when a fault is found and then run the scenario from the saved point or another earlier point (as per Mike's instructions). Will the saved scenario work even though later instructions have been changed since the save was made?

I will experiment with this later on. If it does work then it will save many hours of re-running amended scenarios to test later stages.

I think you may find that some people experience differing scenario behaviour when starting from a save point. This is possible due to the games initialisation procedure being run at the scenario save point rather than at the beginning of the scenario. I suppose behavioural differences may occur depending on whether the player train is at the expected progress point.

[bigvern]

Whoa... Before this gets out of hand, I've already thanked Adam in private correspondence for looking at the route.

Unfortunately due to work commitments (I got called in for 12 hours on Sunday and have been on ET's since this week so too knackered to do much), I haven't had the opportunity to go through the alterations Adam has made much less rework the scenarios and upload the amended version.

Long weekend coming up with Friday and Saturday mornings (hopefully) available for some route building time though there's also a list of jobs to do round the house, also postponed from last Sunday.

I'm very appreciative of Adam's efforts and I'm sure they have made a difference to the route, but I would hesitate to regard my original attempt as user error when signalling RW routes is very much a case of trial and in my (original) case, it seems calamity...

[haddock1000]

Well, I'll beter put my 2 cents worth in as I'm currently in th USA. I think that people shouldn't be put off making large routes because of problems with the scenario editor. And if the scenario editor problems are due to 'user error' as quoted by Adam, then maybe the manuals aren't doing what they should (there's another request that will end up o the long list of requests from the community!). I find that route scenery is just as good. Just see W&B!

Anyway, back to the original question that vern asked. I find that the purpose of the route defines what detail it should have. A route such as GARL was built for the purpose of viewing from the cramped cab of a 380 while other routes were built for the scenery, W&B being a good use for this. I wouldn't mind what the route os built for as long as it is done in that way

[paulz6]

I will happily post that I have not downloaded Vern's more obscure routes because they do no interest me. I would like to see him expand on his 'Further North' route though. Great work and please expand further south! It could be another network in the making!
I think Vern wants a fire and forget approach to route building. If we are to get longer routes, it will take a more dedicated attitude. I see no reason to criticise him though, because he has a hand in the commercial items that I have bought! That is fire and forget! He is also a great contributor to the freeware scene.
Vern, please work more on your Further North route. I know it bores you, but keep going back to it and expand more!

[bigvern]

Quiet chuckle here at my motivations being discussed in the "third person".

However, I quite like the concept of "fire and forget", it does tend to sum up how I work these days.

With regard to extending Far North, I have to be honest and say it is unlikely to happen - for one the source files are long gone (shame there's no way of recreating these) and once the amended Tanigumi is sorted out I have a couple of TS2010 projects to explore. However even then I have to be honest that with the longer days looming train simming and route building will be taking much less of a priority particularly as the time spent putting a route together in any of the sims seems increasingly disproportionate to the benefit it brings.

Which comes back rather neatly to the original point of this topic, that either we need a different approach to route building or the sims themselves need to evolve so this element of content production becomes much quicker.

[paulz6]

Which comes back rather neatly to the original point of this topic, that either we need a different approach to route building or the sims themselves need to evolve so this element of content production becomes much quicker.

I don't know much about digital image processing, but it makes me wonder about technological solutions. Perhaps a utility could be developed which processes Google Earth image data and auto generates a good first pass of the scenery. I should imagine an auto texturing facility wouldn't be too difficult, followed by wooded/housing/industrial area recognition. Then the route builder only needs to worry about super detailing what is near the track.

[Acorncomputer]

I don't know much about digital image processing, but it makes me wonder about technological solutions. Perhaps a utility could be developed which processes Google Earth image data and auto generates a good first pass of the scenery. I should imagine an auto texturing facility wouldn't be too difficult, followed by wooded/housing/industrial area recognition. Then the route builder only needs to worry about super detailing what is near the track.

World of Rails ??

[bigvern]

While GE and particularly Streetview bring many benefits, the downsides are - 1. Maybe it is just easier for people to trace their favourite rail line for real, 2. Self or external pressure on route builders that compromise due to lack of visual information or working off an OS Map with a few muddy fotopics for reference is no longer an option.

Maybe not WOR but certainly as I alluded to I think earlier on, some form of self growing terrain/features like Open TTD or RRT3.

One more note - anyone thinking of using Streetview to obtain brick, stone etc textures to use (no questions asked etc.) there is a very fine watermark on the images if you look closely enough!

[SaMa1]

As I have said sometime before I would think openstreetmap database would be best base for our version of "World of Rails". Now as your Ordance Survey has provided some free data to it(more will follow in few months) free map makers are filling the gaps and the data should be eventually very close to any commercial product. In ideal case user would download needed data from OSM server as xml formated .osm file and the exporter could transfer that to RW scenery with default objects. I don't really see any other way and hope that someone with enough patience to program will do so.