Compromises For Long Routes

[bigvern]

Worthless might have been too strong an adjective then, please replace with frustrating... Will be interested to see what you come up with Adam, the issues do seem to have arisen since the last update as certainly where AI is concerned I didn't encounter to many path failures etc. when setting up scenarios on my earlier routes.

[RSAdam]

Hiya Vern,

Over a sandwich I managed to grab some time driving the route, I'm afraid to report back that there are a number of problems present with the signal placement.

• Incorrect placement of signal links
• Incorrect signals for the passing loops and yard areas
• Several unprotected junctions causing the signals before to show the wrong aspects
• No use of the 'End of track' signal behind buffer stops.

In terms of AI movement, I also found that markers went beyond signal links. This will be a problem because AI trains stop at the very end of markers, but if a red signal is placed before this, the AI will get stuck trying to stop at the marker, but be prevented from doing so by the signal if that makes sense.

I've included an image to highlight one of the issues. First image is the current placement and the second shows a workable arrangement.

Click the image to zoom in

Click the image to zoom in

Let me know if you want to some help to resolve these issues, I'm sure within an hour or so I could have them fixed for you. Then once done you could take a look to see the changes I made, then if you wish we could discuss further. It is important to get the right signals placed correctly and we are aware of this. We have discussed ways on how we can help users understand the process better through videos and tutorials.

Cheers

[bigvern]

Oops...

Could have sworn I followed the guidelines and placed everything as it should be.

By all means have a look Adam and I'll then see about issuing a reworked version.

[oldgreyowl]

From an outsider looking in, WHAT A FANTASTIC DEBATE. You can almost hear the minds ticking over.

Unfortunately, I cannot add any more, only wish I could.

keith

[Acorncomputer]

Hi Keith

Yes, the minds are definitely ticking over, it just takes some of us a little while to find a gear

[RSAdam]

Hiya,

Just had a look at a scenario and, with the updated signalling, I was quite able to get 4 AI trams running the route (Player and 1 AI heading north and 3 AI coming south). A little adjustment of timings and I could force the AI to pass each other in turn at the loops on the single line section.



Regards

[hertsbob]

Now that's got to be worth a couple of chocolate Hob Nobs!

[Trainguy76]

Yes, if someone feels they could I would hope that someone would do a easy to follow guide to signaling.

[Acorncomputer]

Yes, if someone feels they could I would hope that someone would do a easy to follow guide to signaling.

Hi

I think the bottom line is that signalling is not easy.

The basics are straightforward but there is a huge range of signals to choose from and you have to get the right one in the right place.

There are already some good guides to Railway Simulator signalling on UKTS and in the WIKI but they can be only just that, guides. Additional knowledge needs to be obtained from other sources such as books on signalling.

[RSAdam]

the bottom line is that signalling is not easy.

Amen.

[growler37]

Hi
books on signaling seem pretty scarce,at least modern diagrams are ,i have a lot of steam era signaling reference books, but can find no modern equivilents,i have trawlled the net trying to find up to date signaling diagrams for cornwall with no success
Regards
Kevin

[Merlin75]

Have you contacted networkrail or prehaps had aword with station staff at Par or Truro to see if they could get what you need from the signalmen.

[bigvern]

As a NR employee I would counsel against direct approaches to signallers etc., signalling charts and diagrams are regarded as confidential to the rail industry and it is best to avoid a refusal that might offend. The best course of action would be to go through official channels and write via NR Public Relations to see if they can assist.

Even I have to be careful and one of the reasons why I tend to do overseas routes now, would not want to be accused of a conflict of interest or a raised eyebrow that I had taken information from the internal portal etc. to assist in making a UK route. Building a commercial UK route would definitely be out, as I would be - from my job!

[hertsbob]

So we could conclude from the last exchange that 100% accurate signalling might be (or need to be) considered some kind of compromise?

I wonder whether the very nature of the route builder himself (surely there aren't any girls here?) actually dictates the type of route that ends up being built/released? Does it not follow that if you're passionate enough about the route you're creating to be concerned with 100% accurate signalling that you'd also want the route to actually look like the area it was representing as far as possible? - (I'm being 100% rhetorical, Growler).

I am happily coming to terms with the fact that I have a minor(?) mental disorder, in that whatever route I build (admittedly only two so far) I become absolutely immersed in its creation. As an example, I've just spent over 6 hours trying to re-create a canal system which is effectively invisible from the railway... I just know that I couldn't possibly build a route in any other way: I've tried and failed miserably.

Having said all of that, isn't the Danish route >600km long? I confess I've not driven it, but surely 90% of the route isn't 'green'?

Perhaps any compromise should be in the expectations of the downloader? The bottom line is that you could theoretically knock out the entire ECML/WCML etc. etc. etc. in a matter of weeks, but it would have to be flat, featureless and green (unless KeithMRoss is building it, in which case it would be probably perfect! ).

Just a couple of thoughts...

Cheers

Bob

[TransportSteve]

Just a couple of thoughts myself. The signalling question, do you mean semaphore signalling or modern day coloured lights ??
I'm sure there are internet sites that can offer easy to follow instructions on installation and how they operate for most of us irrespective of our technical intelligence. I found this one, but there may be quite a few more to help. http://www.railway-technical.com/sig-uktypes.shtml

I can understand that building a several hundred miles of layout, whether it be fictional or prototypical, could result in it being a little boring, however, I think that Bob's comment of it possibly being hugely flat, featureless and green may seem a tad harsh. Obviously being handicapped eyesight wise, I can't build routes, but, for all those I've downloaded, and with the shortage of ground trextures, which we have already mentioned previously, I see that there are several different colours used for farm fields, etc, yellows, different shades of green, so having several of these in a pattern on both sides of the track surely wouldn't look that featureless. Because of the texture variety restrictions, I appreciate that the same types will pop up frequently, but, you can only use the tools you have to play with at the moment. I am unsure if you wonderful route creators have a copy and paste system for texturing and what about things like hedgerows, do these come in a type of spline form, whereby you can stretch them to a certain length, which would alleviate having to plant hundreds of trees and shrubs, Vern will know what I mean. At the end of the day, and this has also been mentioned before, we can only play on the routes that are created for us, whether they are fictional from a creator's mind, or factual, using DEM and Google Earth structures, etc. I know that some creators have asked the community for geographical suggestions for future releases, which is a nice thought, but, I was always happy to play on whatever you give us, and if it didn't suit our tastes then we moved on to the next one, however, that might sound a bit unfair on the poor old creator to have struggled valiantly for several months creating something that very few end users were interested in, which I think was one of Vern's dilemmas, is that why you've started to request possible ideas for projects, knowing that you 'aint going to waste your valuable spare time in building them, which I'm sure we can all appreciate wholeheartedly.

Cheerz. Transport Steve.