Compromises For Long Routes

[Trainguy76]

I keep seeing a group route project mentioned, and people saying there aren't enough assets. So why can't anyone start a "Group Development" project where a few people can create assets and put them in one specific folder for everyone to use, and redistribute with any route?

[hertsbob]

Hi

Just my thoughts...

I think TransportSteve makes a valid point in that whilst people are asking for long routes in one breath they are complaining that long routes are boring in the other.

Personally, the theoretical compromises you mentioned much earlier in the thread would be a step too far for me. Euston to Watford without the DC lines? How would that work? (I appreciate that you were being rhetorical). By the same token, where is the satisfaction for the route builder in punting out a track-only route?

My Leafy Suburbs route was released entirely as a result of your earlier thread, bigvern. The bottom line is, though, that I'm building the route that I want to build. If others like it then that's great, but if not then I'm still going to carry on regardless. I suspect this is the main reason there aren't so many long routes; people just don't want to build them, or realise that the amount of time they'd need is prohibitive.

However, don't forget that it is possible to duplicate scenery and terrain painting by copying files, so for really long routes it may be that doing this would lessen the burden.

Cheers

Bob

[bigvern]

Certainly some interesting thoughts and ideas coming out.

I think ultimately (Herts) Bob is right - people should build the routes they want to and in the style that they wish, not to appease the baying crowd.

Many of the core of route builders who produced for MSTS (such as myself) are either not interested in coming over to RW or simply too burned out to repeat the experience at least so far as the longer routes are concerned.

Better and more efficient tools and procedures in the core sim would help, but there is no sign of this being looked at by RS.com. The ongoing operational and AI limitations of RW continue to put route builders off - if the AI and signalling can't work properly on a simple 10 mile tram route, what's the point of building a 150 mile route (regardless of the final scenic standard) if it's not going to work properly with green signals straight on to red, etc. etc.

The bottom line and reading between the lines is that despite the "I want, I want" threads which pop up from time to time, what would have passed quite satisfactorily for a finished route in early MSTS or one of its predecessors would no longer be seen as acceptable now. That being the case, probably not an avenue I would pursue and, once I've got the laptop back up to speed, will remain focused on shorter more detailed projects of prototypes that interest me.

[eyore]

I believe the standards required for RW are such that it limits the number of assets being developed simply because the steep learning curve limits the number of people willing to try. We are not all like RSDerek and Sly, producing superb models in a day. Consequently, the library of assets is very limited and route building is very difficult with such a limited pallette to play with.

Hopefully, as skills improve, more assets will appear easing the route builders problems. (Where would MSTS have been without IJ's platforms?) Personally, once the L&B is finished, I intend to spend some time producing more "general" assets for use of the community as a whole. I also hope, like Vern, that RSDL will consider providing some more tools to assist us, like forests.

The bar has been raised since the billiard table flat green routes that proliferated in the early days of MSTS, so I think we have to accept that it will take a little longer before long routes become possible. In the meantime, shorter routes with the option to extend would seem the better option.

[3DTrains]

Hi Vern,

What about building a route in sections, with the thought of expansion as time goes? This of course requires a manager, and also some written creation guidelines, but it should allow large routes to be planned, created, and finished in an efficient manner and reasonable time. I'm not familiar with UK-fare, but to use the US-RW route Cajon as an example:

DEM, track, signaling, etc. for from San Bernardino
DEM only a small section and lay the needed track within the boundaries of the DEM. DEM can always be added at a later time, and needs not be done all at once at the beginning. This builds the basic foundation for the work to come, but even if the route were to progress past the small focus point, track and other essentials could be taken up at a later time if needed. Only focus on a very small area before even thinking of moving forward. You could start with a "San Bernardino team", and as the route progresses, establish new teams for additional areas along the line (Highland, Sullivan's Curve, Summit, etc.). Try and keep each section to about 5-square miles, or to whatever practical.

Begin laying roads, but keep these and other scenery items within the boundaries of the initial focus area. Once the start point is 80 or 90% complete, initiate the next phase area by adding DEM, etc. to an adjoining space. It's also important to avoid setting in "temporary" structures as fillers - either a placemarker structure, partially finished model or an untextured one. As I've learned, it's difficult to go back and finish these off at a later time. Get them done first, before moving to the next model or needed texture.

Once three or four areas are done, begin planing the ground textures. Otherwise, establish these from the start and keep them in until you've reached the halfway point, then see if those previous texture fit your needs. By leaving these in, you don't have to worry about having to constantly update on a whim.

After several areas have been hammered out, have a separate team go in from the start and start looking for problem areas (missing textures, needed bug fixes on the visuals, and tweaks to positions or detail work. If things are becoming unwieldy, back-off a bit from the current area, and revert to a previous one until it's done. Also, establish a period where all items that are being worked on need to come together - whether it's once per week, bi-weekly, etc.

Have a separate group build models, another to create activities, etc. You could wear all these hats if you like, or none and just manage things. As you're well aware, trying to do something all by yourself leads to fatigue, sim burn-out, and failed projects. However, if you start and at least finish San Bernardino, then you have a nice starting point for another to pick up and finish later (re: IoW 3.0 for RW, NEC for MSTS, etc.)

[RSAdam]

if the AI and signalling can't work properly on a simple 10 mile tram route, what's the point of building a 150 mile route

Hi,

While I cannot comment on what the future holds, as its not my place to, I would like to comment on the above. Before a certain website was taken down due to ill placed words, a discussion was had that addressed the above quote. It was along the lines of:

"if the general consensus is that route builders don't know how to use the signalling in RailWorks, yet despite this, believe their lack of knowledge is not the reason the signalling doesn't work as expect, then it doesn't matter how many updates and fixes RS.com release, users will continue to 'believe' its broken."

Therefore, it might be a suggestion to find out why signalling on this 10 mile tram route doesn't work, before statements about longer routes are made. Remember, there are many routes freely available for RailWorks already, several that are longer than 10 miles and the signalling works fine.

Regards

[Trainguy76]

Therefore, it might be a suggestion to find out why signalling on this 10 mile tram route doesn't work, before statements about longer routes are made.

Well, may someone kindly make a document entirely on placing signals?

(Someone isn't referring to Adam, but anyone who is able to get it to work in general.)

[RSAdam]

I might actually have a go at some quick fraps videos on signalling.

Two signal gurus from MSTS have already produced some documents in the file library on RailWorks signalling. Namely Mark Brinton and John Yelland. Off the top of my head I cannot remember if they focus just on Semaphores though, but ultimately the principles of usage are the same.

Regards

[Acorncomputer]

Hi Marc

We had a good discussion on group routes last year and it is perfectly possibly to do this by several methods. I would have been very happy to organise such a project but even with a group of well motivated and experienced creators, there is there is a huge amount or organisation required which I could not commit to in the foreseeable future.

http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic. ... 15&t=90921

Someone else might like to organise such a project.

[partyspiritz]

This has been done for MSTS gowin to knowear route


Regards


John

[growler37]

Hi
Regarding scenery placement,decals could speed things up a little,especially for distance features,fields,etc,only problem is the flashing when placed on anything but a flat surface.
the ground surface textures we have at the moment are very limited,and quite difficult to get to look neat,without overspray,i would like to see many more variations of ground textures availiable for RW,one route looks very much the same as the rest at the moment, more ground textures would help no end .
At the moment i have the missing link route on the go,Penzance to Plymouth modern! track is laid,speed limits and gradiants as accurate as possible(boy is it hard to drive),stations are in,and some buildings around Penzance,St Austell,Truro,but the rest is just all green,although i enjoy the challenge of driving the cornish banks! it would probably bore the average RW user because of lack of detail,its very difficult to get the route building mind out of super detail mode!but as Vern says its the only realistic way to get long distance routes,without it being your lifes work!
Regards
Kevin

[3DTrains]

Hi Geoff,

Yes, organization is key, as well as good management. Also, many might like one road or another, but not many would agree on the location, time period or the project's ultimate goal. Thus, like minds appear to be in short supply, which is what makes large group projects so difficult. There's a group of folks who got together to recreate most of the PRR as it exited in the 1940s, '50s and '60s (PRR-ER), and it's still going strong. I believe a good part of the motivation and dedication to their project comes from their fondness of the PRR and the period modeled, not to mention solid project leadership.

[johny]

I might actually have a go at some quick fraps videos on signalling.

Two signal gurus from MSTS have already produced some documents in the file library on RailWorks signalling. Namely Mark Brinton and John Yelland. Off the top of my head I cannot remember if they focus just on Semaphores though, but ultimately the principles of usage are the same.

Regards

Mark produced the following for RS and they are valid for RW:

Un-Official Guide to Signalling on Rail Simulator Part 1 v2.0 [3863031 bytes] - KRS Sigs pt1 v2-00.zip File ID: 17690 Date: 12 Jan 2008 - 3375 Downloads

Un-Official Guide to Signalling on Rail Simulator Part 2 v1.0 [3283747 bytes] - KRS Sigs pt2 v1-00.zip File ID: 17957 Date: 12 Jan 2008 - 2017 Downloads

whilst I produced a long time ago the following, although written for MSTS the descriptions of UK signalling principles are just as valid:

MSTS - British Signalling Practice [2118918 bytes] - tutbritsig.zip File ID: 1627 Date: 03 Jun 2007 - 2755 Downloads

Judging by the download counts all three have been much consulted.

John

[bigvern]

FAO Adam, the route concerned is my Tanigumi Tramway, in the library here at UKTS under "Northern Warrior Developments". Two issues, firstly almost all the main signals give a green straight on to a red without a single yellow splitting them up. The other was an almost complete inability to get AI traffic running the length of the route in an opposite direction. Now partly that may be down to lack of portals as a correspondent from France has noted to me, he doctored the route with portals and got AI trams working (presumably over very short distances). However until it is possible to path AI on a single line route in the latest build, RW is pretty much worthless for that type of project.

[RSAdam]

Hiya,

(am trying hard not to hijack the thread) Ok Vern, I will take a look over lunch time maybe and see what I can find. RailWorks isn't worthless, so lets try and see why this route is having some trouble.

Regards