Atomic Systems

petermakosch wrote:Is it the fact that people are willing to pay so people are out to make a quick buck? Or perhaps if they charged £1 per item then a lot more people would buy? It just suprises me how people are happy to charge for items that, let's face it, aren't that huge, especially given the current state of the financial world. I guess the bug hasn't bitten them yet

I wouldn't say payware developers are out for a quick buck. A lot of developers want to share their abilities and passion with the community, but as the simulators get more advanced, the time it takes increases exponentially.

It's understandably difficult to justify giving out your work for free after spending hundreds of hours on it, but thankfully there are those out there who manage. But on top of time there's purchases that need to be made at the expense of the author. Whether it simply be literature necessary for drawings, or a trip or two to get all of the necessary photographs, it costs money. When you start wanting sounds included in the package then it gets much more expensive, as it boils down to either having pricey sound recording equipment at your disposal or hiring the services of those who do.

It boils down to spending your own time and money on a project, and if you can afford to give up both for free at the end of the day then the community will appreciate it greatly, but we can't all manage it.

It's understandably difficult to justify giving out your work for free after spending hundreds of hours on it

I don't understand the logic behind this statement. If you build for your own pleasure, how can it be difficult to justify if you want others to enjoy the results of what has given you so much pleasure.

What I think you're really saying is that you can't understand why someone would spend time building something...and then give it away when they could sell it and make some money instead. You've not taken into account that some turn to train simming as a pastime, where they can escape from the turmoil of business and the real world....and they are not interested in using every opportunity they come across to make money.

My own personal opinion as to the current state of Rail Simulator is that I'm concerned that the apparent cost of expanding the basic simulator will put off many of those who buy RS to see what its like. Particularly now RS costs less than £10.

Well you can accuse me of whatever you may, but what it boils down to different opinions, is all.

I try and push my work to be the best I can which takes time and money. Both of which are valuable, especially when both are hard to come by right now. I'm sure once you come out the other end of employment it's much easier to assign free time.

I go along with Doug on this. The majority of people who build Routes, Locos & Rolling Stock, do it for their own pleasure and like to share it with those that are unable to build such Routes or items of stock. I think I can say that the majority of train simmer's, will have had a go at building a Route and find it a bit more complex than what they thought it would be. Some people find it easier than other's. You either gel with it or you don't. You need to be pretty much advanced in using a computer to understand how to do certain things, needed to produce good quality routes, which often involves building 3D models for it as well.

I myself fall into the category, of unexperienced, as far as route building, or 3D modeling is concerned, but have managed to grasp certain tasks, such as understanding the Activity Editor and Route Editor, for altering or adding to already built routes.
I spent many many months just adding all the Illuminations to the Blackpool Tramway, because I thought it would be something different to what had been done before. This was all agreed with Verne Moorehouse first, as he was the author of this route. But the most pleasure I got out of it, was the appreciation that I gave to thousands of train sim members who either downloaded the Blackpool Illuminations, or bought the Community CD from UKTrainsim. If I could build Routes as good as Dorset Coast, Thames Mersey, Cannock Chase and many others just as good, I would do. AND I would do it for Free. I am a beliver of the old old saying, It is far better to give than to recieve.

Geoff

dkightley wrote:My own personal opinion as to the current state of Rail Simulator is that I'm concerned that the apparent cost of expanding the basic simulator will put off many of those who buy RS to see what its like. Particularly now RS costs less than £10.

I'm with you both

I think it's totally up to the content producers to create what they want and charge what they want, as they see fit. Personally I'll make what I want, and if others can use them as well then great and I'm happy to share. If I'm "working" in my spare time it needs to pay a lot more than train sim addons ever will
However I would also agree that RS is starting to look like it could become an expensive proposition with all the add ons and could well be putting off potential buyers.

I'm less against the "total" addons (route, stock, scenarios all in one), the replacement packages (new sounds, etc - have them or don't, it all still works for everyone) or even the loco packages (loco and some scenarios for the default routes) as these can swapped out using Mike's excellent tool if people use them later in scenarios.
The ones that grind my gears are the foliage packs. Now the idea of low res versions for free is frankly fantastic and I applaud those groups who do that and therefore stop the routes becoming useless.
However, RSDL's foliage pack is bad news in my opinion. It basically means a slew of freeware routes (which lets face it are the life blood of where we run everything else that's available) become barren in large patches because the creator bought the extra trees and used them. Running with lo-res sections in some places and running with enormous empty patches of landscape are worlds apart in my opinion.
I guess my point is, I would choose to buy a route, loco or scenario pack. I would not choose to buy some tress, but will be forced into it if 2 or 3 routes become total eye sores without them. It may only be £4, but as a customer that doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling (like I got when the 66/IoW pack arrived on my doorstep), it makes me feel like I'm over a barrel.

karma99 wrote
I guess my point is, I would choose to buy a route, loco or scenario pack. I would not choose to buy some tress, but will be forced into it if 2 or 3 routes become total eye sores without them. It may only be £4, but as a customer that doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling (like I got when the 66/IoW pack arrived on my doorstep), it makes me feel like I'm over a barrel.

Whilst I think the foliage pack should have been free, the £4.00 is well worth every penny and I have no hesitation in using it in my routes. The UK countryside is covered with trees and vegetation and the foliage pack enables me to recreate that landscape without overloading the frame rates.

Hi,

I feel I need to stand up for the foliage pack. (Mainly because I did it )
It was done because I saw a need for it from watching the forums and how people were using assets.
I can also tell you it has sold very well and it is very popular.
So for loco people it may not give you a fuzzy feeling but for route builders it does.

It also took as long to put the pack together as it would to do a cab or loco model, RSDL staff don't work for free so it was sold at a very modest price.

So to recap:
1 - There was a need
2 - It is very popular
3 - It is sold at an affordable price.

Surely those things justify doing it?

If you want everything that will ever be produced for RS then yes I agree it may get relatively expensive.
If you wanted every product Hornby, Bachmann or Vi trains ever release that also would be very very expensive. Most people however would probably not buy the entire range, it's about providing choice.
For those that don't want to buy anything we have given you the tools to create your own.

Best regards

Derek

And once purchased, the foliage pack is there for all subsequent routes that will make use of it. Mine certainly will. Ditto the IOW, which provides some invaluable additional assets.

I converted some of my freeware MSTS to RS originally to see if it could be done, I already had the necessary programs from the early days of MSTS. Having proved to myself it could be done without too much hassle, except for learning RS's ways, I released them as freeware as were the original models.

However, I am quite happy to accept donations (tax paid) from those who believe I should charge for my work.

John

A Question -

Whilst there are many people now converting MSTS1 models and scenery to RS format, how easy/difficult is it to convert models made specifically for RS to MSTS1 format?

The same applies to RS as MSTS, you must have the original construction files, in other words be the original author. I do not see too many converting MSTS, most of the authors appear to have dropped out of the scene.

John

Acorncomputer wrote:A Question -

Whilst there are many people now converting MSTS1 models and scenery to RS format, how easy/difficult is it to convert models made specifically for RS to MSTS1 format?

It can be done if you have the original files. I did convert my RS Ivatt 2-6-2T model to MSTS format, but the response to that model, when it was released, was so muted, that I could never be bothered to do any more.

Cheers,
Kevin

Acorncomputer wrote:A Question -
Whilst there are many people now converting MSTS1 models and scenery to RS format, how easy/difficult is it to convert models made specifically for RS to MSTS1 format?

My updates to GWR scenery for RS and back to MSTS seem to have gone down well - but then again a lot of them were over 5 years old and in need of an update.

I've still got a few new and updated models I intend to export to both. There is still an active MSTS1 community out there.

Hi John & Kevin & Paul

I was thinking a little laterally in that there is obviously still a great deal of support for MSTS1 even to the extent that some people are even now planning some quite ambitious routes.
Taking the Railway Simulator scene as a whole, all active areas, regardless of the type of simulator, need to be supported where there is interest as we all really benefit from this in the end.
Enthusiasm is infectious and helps to promote new ideas and projects but there is nothing wrong with conserving old ideas as well.
It seems that we are in a lull at the moment with the old winds dying down and the new winds just getting up. I hope to be well blown away one day.

Doug, you made a mistake, which we all do at some time, but I would just like to say that although we do not agree on everything, your contributions to UKTS are much appreciated.

Doug, you made a mistake, which we all do at some time, but I would just like to say that although we do not agree on everything, your contributions to UKTS are much appreciated.

Thanks for your kind words, Geoff...and yes, I've had my "wrist slap", but a knee in the groin totally out of the blue can be impossible to get over.