Atomic Systems

Hi,
RSDL are looking into better documentation and tutorials.
Anyone wanting help, by all means ask.
If we can help we do.

regards

derek

Nothing like good debate...

Sorry mods and UKTS in general, but your lack of enthusiasm for the RailSim platform shows..
I can fully understand why, you are undoubtably long term Train Simmer's and all your knowledge and experience has been gained on MSTS... I fully agree with the comment about not speaking on subjects that you know nothing about.. result is zero...
I started to count the posts made by mods in the active topics in the general RS forum... and found only one that offered advice directly pertaining to RS.. there were some PC / windows / web posts.. couldn't even find one congratulating or praising congratulating someone on their work.

Contrast this with comments made in this thread by a respected demonstrator at UK live shows..... "RS is so poor" and then goes on to say how he knows nothing about it.

There is nothing defeatist in attitude in deciding to attempt to raise the level of a model..

Sorry but UKTS is not doing anything... There is zero enthusiasm shown for RS

Yes you can set the DL library to RS if you wish .. certainly on all three of my systems .. it defaults back to MSTS everytime.. I accept that I may not be doing it correctly...

So is UKTS taking credit for the fact that once all the DL on the front page were for RailSim... ?

Nah Bazza .. wheres the kettle and the black pot ? It was childish to move the forum listing around... nothing childish in stating that is how it is perceived..

From a couple of posts in this thread it is apparent that I am not the only one that sees the official side of UKTS as leaning towards MSTS....

This won't become a slagfest of sim v sim on my part.. you will find no posts from me anywhere on UKTS claiming superiority one way or the other..

I do want to see RS succeed as I can see the future potential.. I would like to see it openly encouraged and not disparaged, especially by persons that actually admit to having no idea..

Hey Geoff , I am not the least bit sensative ... If you actually knew me you would understand..

From where I stand UKTS is not openly encouraging RS.. it is merely going through the motions... The only comments then made by "official " sources , are to highlight the apparent lack of content and support from the community....... maybe thats where the kettle and the black pot come in

I stand by my statement that UKTS should openly support the RS platform and that there is a vested interest.

Sly

Sly401 wrote:From where I stand UKTS is not openly encouraging RS.. it is merely going through the motions... The only comments then made by "official " sources , are to highlight the apparent lack of content and support from the community....... maybe thats where the kettle and the black pot come in

I stand by my statement that UKTS should openly support the RS platform and that there is a vested interest.

Well you seem determined to have an argument regarding UKTS and the support of Rail Simulator. However, even though I don't agree with what you are saying you are well within the forum rules etc. UKTS do allow criticism contrary to folklore that abounds on some other sites. You are entitled to your views and I am not going to pick your post apart to refute your mostly baseless claims. I think you are staring too long into the gloom and seeing shadows that don't exist (to quote my German manager).

What I might do instead is take a "time-out" from helping Pete on the DCC demo part of the stand at the Brighton show and have my daughter give me a public Rail Sim masterclass using Kevin's excellent little steam engines. Maybe I might get my head round it one day. What I have seen so far did not enthuse me. My attempts at scenario creation failed miserably with trains not doing what I wanted or thought they would do. Having read endless amounts of forum posts I await the MK3 upgrade with interest since that might solve some of the issues I have seen reported that mirror the problems I have been having.

My free time seems in increasingly short supply these days and I still have 3 half written activities for the Bristol - Swansea route to finish off. One has been on the back-burner for 18 months now Learning a whole new simulator is a luxury that time does not allow at this stage what with work, trying to manage the social club, and soon to be railroaded into being secretary of the model railway club plus general home life.

Hi John

I am planning to go to Brighton. I will be happy to show you a few of the features of Rail Simulator too.

Bronwyn and myself will be there Friday and Saturday only. If you are there on those days I will be pleased for someone to give me a little help. I have driven the Isle Of White line with reasonable success but not much more despite having had the simulator since day 1.

Hi John

I certainly wasn't picking a fight with any individual

No-one can choose their own enthusiasm... but a couple of officials that are enthusiastic and prepared to show it would go a long way. Maybe recruitment is necessary ?

All though the long established formats have plenty of life left in them, it is not unreasonable to expect a tailing off .. likewise the newer formats are likely to see continued growth, there will probably be a change in the balance .. its called evolution.

Sooner or later it will be time to nail the colors to the mast or cast the upstart adrift..... the choice is for UKTS to make eventually.

Sly

Hi John

I am trying to get to Brighton on Saturday so I hope to see you then.
I am getting a feeling that knowing how smart kids are these days, Bronwyn might actually know more about Rail Simulator than any of us, so I am prepared to be educated myself.
Has Bronwyn tried The Big Layout. It's great fun.

Hi Sly

Knowing that there are hundreds of people who have contributed to MSTS1 but have not yet contributed anything to RS is a frustrating situation but as I have posted before, I think that patience is required and the contributions will come in time.

UKTS is a great 'institution' and needs supporting despite the 'apparent' lack of enthusiasm for Rail Simulator at the moment. The World is not going to end tomorrow (I don't think so at least otherwise there goes Brighton) and those that have seriously tried RS and stuck with it (not least of all yourself) will continue to produce content to entice others in.

Knowing that there are hundreds of people who have contributed to MSTS1 but have not yet contributed anything to RS is a frustrating situation but as I have posted before, I think that patience is required and the contributions will come in time.

Phew, I downloaded and read Auran's content builder guide in PDF format, it's 451 pages. I understand RS's combined docs go to over 600 pages; I think there would have been 6 pages for TS1 + six years of hard toil.

It's not so much the modeling that's the problem, but getting your head around a whole heap of new protocols.

Cheers Bazza

Hi Bazza

Glad to see you having a look, it can seem daunting.. but much like any piece of software once you get a handle on it your own intuition will lead you through.

Just to point out to all that there was certain erratum in the original docs, and I am not sure all this has been corrected as yet.. caution needed.

As you are a developer, naturally you wish to get into all the nooks and crannys of the docs....... however for your own sanity .. stay in touch on the boards it could save you days of frustration.. there is now a good knowledge base out there and good people willing to share it.

Cheers Sly

petermakosch wrote: Is the era of great freeware gone?

I don't think so. There may not be a lot of free downloads available yet, but there is not a lot of commercial products available either. It will just take time.

Not everybody is going to want the responsibilities of launching a commercial product for the sake of a few quid.

Many thanks to Kevin for his excellent steam engines.

Hi All,
Firstly I have not read every word of this thread. So my thoughts may have been covered. If they have, do with the post what you will.

I do not have RS, beyond the demo. I do not berate it as I don't use it.

The reason I don't use it?

My PC won't run it, and I can't afford a new one. This will, I am sure prevent a lot of existing Simmers getting involved with RS. Nothing to do with likes or dislikes or personal feelings.

That's it for what it's worth.

For what its worth i have to agree with Douglee - i obtained a free trial copy of RS @ a road show. My young son who had been very taken with what we had seen @ the road show nagged me the whole way home to get it loaded so he could play. But my laptop however wont run it and so for the time being we run MSTS1 and are very happy with it. RS even on my wife's higher spec PC struggles and quite frankly not being very PC literate makes me appreciate even more the MSTS1 ability to drive it out of the box. Perhaps it is an education thing as well in that if a software package needs more than a moderate understanding of how it works then the number of people using it will be limited. In today's economic world where time for leisure activities is fast being curtailled by the need to keep one's job, time for reading copious amounts of material before 'passing go' will just get binned in the belief 'you can pick it up as you go along' - normally an eroneous belief if you want to get the best from the game or whatever. The new routes coming out this year are eagerly anticipated and i look forward to writing activities for them especially MidEast Plus.There is life in our old dog yet and with all the clever people on this forum who contribute mightily to mine and others understanding once we want to go onto such things as writing activities,etc then long may MSTS1 continue.
Dave

I really do hope there is more widespread takeup of Rail Simulator - for newer players especially. It is probably the most likely title to encourage non-train-simmers into the genre, and more players could mean more reason for developers to persist with the product line...

I bought MSTS on the day it was released in 2001, but found it too difficult to play, wasn't sure what I was doing and didn't find in it any real atmosphere. I was hugely disappointed and figured that perhaps train simulation didn't really work on a PC. I shoved it on a shelf. When custom content started to appear, it all seemed too complex to install (for a beginner) and I ended up wrecking the install as a result, so gave up.

When Rail Simulator was released years later, I hesitated because of the seeming let-down of MSTS. But I gave it a go and found this time that the game seemed far more beckoning (despite lacking a tutorial such as that in MSTS). I think the main draw that Rail Simulator had over MSTS was the feel of 'being there'. Of course, it's much newer so can have full 3D cabs and environments that go a long way to creating this feeling. Anyway, the grab was enough for me to persist this time - purely for the atmosphere of the incredible game experience.

And as a result of Rail Simulator, I finally had the patience to retry (and this time succeed with) MSTS too! So I think there is a lot of merit for train sims generally if RS sees a bigger take-up. It sure could do with a sutable beginner route though! It's a pity one of the IOW activities didn't make the original build - they're the easiest to get to grips with before moving on to the less beginner-friendly locos and high-speed lines! But, as a direct result of Rail Simulator, I'm now the proud owner of four different rail simulator games, including MSTS with custom content!

Sue
_________________

EDIT: on the earlier discussion about individual feedback on uploads, I upload to a Sims 2 site where I can opt whether to receive comments or not. I can also choose to delete any comments that aren't 'sensible'! Sims creations are high-download items and I'll receive anything from 25 - 250 comments daily. In the last five years, I have only ever deleted two comments! Mostly, comments are wonderful and make me want to create more (oh, such stupid ego)! But it does work. I figured maybe more creators might gain enjoyment in sharing their work if they too could enjoy some direct appreciation, hence my suggestion at the beginning of this thread.

.......however for your own sanity .. stay in touch on the boards it could save you days of frustration.. there is now a good knowledge base out there and good people willing to share it.

Sly, no matter which sim you're refering to, that about covers the ground rules.

Cheers Bazza

Riche wrote:I'm sorry, but £10 per add-on when you're expected to buy multiple add-ons isn't a small price. I was put off Rail Simulator, and haven't played it in ages (and I was extremely enthusiastic about using it even when most instantly poo-pooed it), partly thanks to the high cost of every payware item, both from RSDL and from third parties. I hate to be critical of things and not give them a chance, but I simply can't afford to keep up the RS hobby. Thanks to it making a lot of MSTS pale in comparison, that also puts me off MSTS, a serious own goal for the community.

This is what has happened to me. I tasted Rail SImulator and was impressed with the first few runnings. Then slowly as each new big item came out, I found everything came with a price tag, making (like i say) the sim not just the £24.99 from the shop, but nearer the £50 mark once you purchase the items that really get things going.

It's also what puts me off a few items I am keeping an eye on, the Class 168/170/171, the Class 37, a few other items too. I can see them all coming in at £10 a pop which pushes the price of the sim up to the £60-£70 mark. Apart from "The Sims" I don't know any other game that has a pricing structure like this. Already, two projects I was interested in are already disclosed as being payware <-- my interest in that project has now gone.

Is it the fact that people are willing to pay so people are out to make a quick buck? Or perhaps if they charged £1 per item then a lot more people would buy? It just suprises me how people are happy to charge for items that, let's face it, aren't that huge, especially given the current state of the financial world. I guess the bug hasn't bitten them yet

Please don't get me wrong, I am in no way saying all the payware stuff is trash, not at all. But again, like has been mentioned, it's an expensive hobby to be in. I am just saying that individual trains are priced around the £10 mark, so I guess that means routes should be around the £30-£40 mark, considering the amount of time it takes to spend creating each one. . .

Acorncomputer wrote:It is clear that UKTS has a bias towards MSTS1, but there is nothing sinister in this as it simply reflects historical events.

I'd respectfully suggest it's more the community who are like this rather than the site. Most people know MSTS and how it works, what to do in the event of problems, it's almost like they built it! In 12-18 months time, the tables may well have turned.
Then again, as everything for Rail Simulator is priced, then the life of MSTS will be drawn out longer. This is where Making Tracks have failled but suceeded at the same time. I feel that Making Tracks just missed the peak time in MSTS life. This would be where files would take a few days to appear due to the volume and more and more high quality addons were produced. So, with the hype about MSTS-2 (the first time round), the life of MSTS-1 seemed to be on the slope downwards. Yet, due to the great releases and better models, the sim peaked up again. Admittidly not as much as it was, but certainly more than not. So the last few months, the last few years of MSTS's life can be enjoyed with more stock to be released by Making Tracks and others as everyone looks at what to do next. The company just missed the peak time of the sim, but in doing so, gave it a longer life.

bigvern wrote:This may seem anathema to some and may not please the die-hards who want bushes swaying in the breeze at every turn, but if the bar has been raised so high that the majority of producers can't or won't be bothered to reach it then...lower the bar a bit. This is train simming not Crysis FPS and most of us who have been with it since the pre-MSTS days would be happy to get what we can, even if it doesn't fit someone's idea of the "latest standard".

Very true, but perhaps it is this high standard that people expect? Perhaps the latest efforts in MSTS have grown the community into a field of excellence, where only the best will do. I personally am not the best. My little route will not be the best and will use pretty much ALL default items. However, we should take perhaps a moment to reflect what the community managed to produce in a few years:


Sorry Matt and Horgy, I don't mean to pick on your item. It really was very good in it's day!


That's a big difference. I guess people just won't be happy without excellence.

Sly401 wrote:Sorry mods and UKTS in general, but your lack of enthusiasm for the RailSim platform shows..

So does mine and I'm developing something for it!

and please, DON'T HIJACK MY THREAD! - If you want to talk about MSTS vs Rail Sim, please, do it elsewhere