Atomic Systems

As far as I can tell most contributors can be contacted by PM.
If people want to damn or praise their work then why not do it that way?

Hi Vern, Bazza

You probably will be puzzled, because you don't have a vested interest in keeping MSTS and freeware in paticular going

This may be my last post on here for saying it, but one of the biggest losers should RS and payware become more the norm is UKTS... Support and encouragement for the new platform has been lacking in enthusiasm from as it were "official sources". There are very few Mods that post anything to do with the game at all.. then there are childish stunts like moving the board order around.

Payware and RS will not be the death of Rail simming far from it.. but it just might be the death of UKTS......... UNLESS

Get off the fence guys.. If you don't another site will come along that is run professionally and RS users will migrate there ... just the same as Trainz

and then what will you have left..

I can tell you that as a developer, I have items ready for release and wheras 12 months ago they would have been out of the door quick as a flash, The lacklustre support shown gives me no encouragment to place items in your library at the moment. Possibly before I would have just released the model, now I will spend a whole lot more time and attempt to raise it to commercial standard.......

Of course this is just my own opinion..

I am sure this will be refuted and to a point UKTS is not doing anything wrong... just not doing anything at all as far as RS is concerned.

Not seen it myself.. but I have reports that at roadshows MSTS is shown on 3 systems and occasionally RS on just one system.. why does the download library default to MSTS all the time.. Then the laughable exercise of " Train Simulator "apparently being alphabetically before "Rail Simulator"

Of course UKTS should promote MSTS but they should at least equally promote RS if they want the RS community to support them.

Sly

UKTS has no 'vested' interest in any particular sim, it merely provides a service driven by its user base. It has never been the policy of UKTS to cajole more input out from modelers for any sim. The user base is mainly commercial market driven* and UKTS has always sold software for the convenience of its members. (*Commerically produced software, such as TS1, RS and TRS.*) It provides a service for other related sims, too, such as BVE, etc.

UKTS has no influence on which sim its members wish to follow, either as an end user, or contributor to the file library. Modelers choose to model what modelers choose to model.

I think I can state catagorically, that UKTS's vested interest is in train simming plural.

I am making this post as a member of UKTS, not as a moderator. IMO, I've been around UKTS long enough to make a educated statement.

You are, however, correct in this respect, if payware outweighs freeware, and this applies to any sim genre, then the hobby will change dramatically.

In the end, it still comes back to the amateur content contributor, whether that is activities, routes, MPU, rollingstock or scenery models; I can only reiterate what I said before: "Modelers choose to model what modelers choose to model."

Cheers Bazza

but I have reports that at roadshows MSTS is shown on 3 systems and occasionally RS on just one system

Thats incorrect. At all roadshows I have attended, Msts is shown on two screens and RS shown on the third screen all day, every day. The reason perhaps that it doesnt get quite as much time as msts is that the UKTS Roadshow team, with the exception of Peter, Matt and Christine, is made up of its members who tend to drive what they are used to. Speaking for myself, RS so disappointed me that I have no inclination to use it at home, nor any inclination to show it at roadshows, nor any real knowledge of it to talk about it to people enquiring. Luckily Matt is very expert at using RS now and so he mostly does the RS demonstrating and explanations. The fact that we give away loads of RS demo disks tends to negate the argument that UKTS are not promoting it.

I can tell you that as a developer, I have items ready for release and wheras 12 months ago they would have been out of the door quick as a flash, The lacklustre support shown gives me no encouragment to place items in your library at the moment. Possibly before I would have just released the model

This is the classic chicken /egg situation. If you had released more content you might have persuaded me to try RS again sooner. So you cant win. Unfortunately though I dont think any amount of freeware releases, or payware releases for that matter, would have changed my opinion in that first week.

Had RS been significantly better I would have adopted it right from the start. In fact I was eagerly awaiting it. Im afraid its gone the way of msts at the begining. Then when i got msts i was so disappointed with it, I uninstalled it after the first week and it remained in my desk drawer until something came along to inspire me to retrieve it. RS has been the same, there were so many things wrong with it when i first started using it that Im afraid it, too, has been dumped into the desk drawer. Maybe 5 years down the line when it reaches the same standard as msts is today, then i might take another look.

mendes wrote:As far as I can tell most contributors can be contacted by PM.
If people want to damn or praise their work then why not do it that way?

Because firstly, that's not immediately accessible and requires searching for someone's forum account, and secondly, that extra effort required and the fact it isn't immediately obvious what they can do is what puts off a lot of people from doing so. Convenience is everything, particularly in an age when most websites allow very easy feedback.

If the authors can hide/approve comments, then they can choose what appears. If they're mature, they'll leave the constructive criticism and take from it what they will. If they're not, then it's their problem, and the larger community shouldn't suffer from lack of support because of it.

I do get the impression that, at present, unintentionally, the file library is biased towards MSTS, primarily of course due to the fact there are vastly more downloads available for it. It could be made a fair bit easier to access RS locos since at present the default in the file library is MSTS, rather than a more general 'all sims' or a 'pick a sim' option.

I'm impressed by what I've heard about the UKTS Live roadshow promotion of RS (I must get along to another of them someday ) and they were confident enough in it to show it off from day one even when everyone else was denouncing it, so that leaves me completely without a doubt that the file library bias is unintentional and more for historical reasons than anything else.

Sly401 wrote:This may be my last post on here for saying it, but one of the biggest losers should RS and payware become more the norm is UKTS... Support and encouragement for the new platform has been lacking in enthusiasm from as it were "official sources". There are very few Mods that post anything to do with the game at all.. then there are childish stunts like moving the board order around.

It certainly won't be your last post on here unless you choose to make it that way. Contrary to the view from some ex-members, the admins and moderator team do not ban people for expressing adverse views of UKTS. People do get banned for repeatedly failing to comply with the forum rules or by signing up again whilst on a temporary ban. As Laurie says RS does get a good showing at the live shows and we have had the benefit of RSDL developers attending shows as well to talk to the public. I have a copy of RS and I find it hard to get my head round. My daughter who attends UKTS shows is quite skilled with it but she does not post of the forums and I do not have the technical knowledge to post answers to questions that are being asked so the only scope I have is to wield the axe when people get out of order.

Sly401 wrote:Get off the fence guys.. If you don't another site will come along that is run professionally and RS users will migrate there ... just the same as Trainz

UKTS is not "on the fence" it supports all simulators related to the rail scene. However, most of the content in the forums is driven by the members so if they are not Trainz or RS orientated then they won't post about those products. I am sure the rest of the moderators would agree that posting about something in ignorance is worse than not posting at all. The last thing we need is people spreading ignorance or petty dislike of other products since the latter degenerates into a flame war pretty soon.

Sly401 wrote:I can tell you that as a developer, I have items ready for release and wheras 12 months ago they would have been out of the door quick as a flash, The lacklustre support shown gives me no encouragment to place items in your library at the moment. Possibly before I would have just released the model, now I will spend a whole lot more time and attempt to raise it to commercial standard.......

Well that is just a defeatist attitude. If it works then release it - you can always update it later if you get constructive advice. Myself - I couldn't paint or model anything.

Sly401 wrote:I am sure this will be refuted and to a point UKTS is not doing anything wrong... just not doing anything at all as far as RS is concerned.

I think you and I are looking at 2 different sites then ?

Sly401 wrote:Not seen it myself.. but I have reports that at roadshows MSTS is shown on 3 systems and occasionally RS on just one system.. why does the download library default to MSTS all the time.. Then the laughable exercise of " Train Simulator "apparently being alphabetically before "Rail Simulator"

See my comments above and also Laurie's comments before then about the UKTSlive shows.

The download library can and does default to RS downloads if you set your personal options that way. Takes 5 seconds to do and then you will never be troubled by MSTS downloads again. I have my settings set to show only MSTS but when answering questions on the UKTS Support Desk I can switch to see RS items. The forum changes were done by the admins to make the MSTS-X (or whatever you want to call it) forum read only and create (as requested) a generic area where general non-specific discussion could take place - not a slight on RS.

I would also point at (as somebody else did last week) that at one point all of the newest files above the news items on the front page of the site were for Rail Simulator so if that is not supporting RS I don't know what is.

There are very few Mods that post anything to do with the game at all.. then there are childish stunts like moving the board order around.

I overlooked that one. If you're refering to RS, it may well because few of the mods actually have it installed, or as some one else put it, because they don't want to comment on something they don't have much experience of. I know some modelers are experiencing problems coming to grips with the sim, mostly because the protocols are completely different to other sims and it takes time to model for it or produce routes. I'd like to say this is not peculiar to RS, it would have been the same situation with TS2, although sadly that's somewhat moot right now.

then there are childish stunts like moving the board order around.

Oh come on, matey! IMO, that statement is a childish stunt not worthy of comment. The pot calling the kettle black?

Cheers Bazza

Re ELR, I posted in the MSTS ELR section and got a response from Chris...(see thread):-

http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic. ... 62&t=91288

So doesn't look like it's going to happen particularly if the source files are gone. Obviously I can only respect Chris' situation and viewpoint and at least he has responded. However what about all the others who built freeware for MSTS, is it simply that they cannot be bothered or burned out? WWhere's the guy who did all the Mark One rolling stock, the guy who did the tree sets or the terraced etc. houses. Thanks to Sly for clarifying his earlier comments and of course to those who provided a counterpoint. However I can't help thinking that the community which grew up around MSTS is so centric that they cannot see further than that.

This may seem ironic coming from myself as I wasn't exactly the greatest supporter of RS when it came out but, having pretty much abandoned MSTS, at least I have tried to give it a chance. However there will come a point when even route builders may have to consider whether it's worth starting a project if there's little or no chance of suitable rolling stock being released or some new scenery models to avoid the constant re-use of the same old items.

kevmt wrote:

mendes wrote:
I understand a lot of MSTS Stock was made with TSM. I'm assuming that there is no means of converting these to RS.

I'm fairly certain that you can now import TSM files into Canvas, which could then be re-exported into Railsim.

Cheers,
Kevin

Virtually since day one of RS and with importation of textures. I am still not that keen on RS but have converted some of my work, the original BR/LMS signal kit in February last year and the original GWR signal kit in April.

John

Hi

It is clear that UKTS has a bias towards MSTS1, but there is nothing sinister in this as it simply reflects historical events.
I think Paul is being a little over sensitive here and although I too am puzzled over the fact that Train Simulator comes before Rail Simulator in the index listing, there is nothing sinister here and may just reflect the standard of education at UKTS (just a joke!)

There has been a lot of support from UKTS, particularly from Matt who has helped me out on a number of occasions, but it would help more if some moderators and some other UKTS supporters could at least put some effort into trying out Rail Simulator. That way they could provide more input rather than saying nothing through ignorance.

I enjoy using Rail Simulator and have achieved vastly more with it than I ever did with MSTS1 and think that same would apply to anyone else using it seriously.

http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1106189

At the next moderators meeting, and before the beer flows too much, why not have a talk about more positive support for RS and the encouragement of freeware for the library by example.

PS This question seems to have gone unanswered but is relevant to the management of the Group Route Project - http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=90948

This thread seems to be splitting into the usual "thissim" is better than "thatsim" slag fest!

To try and get back to the point, there is a shortage of free RS content, because there seems to be very few people who have mastered the techniques necessary to create content for the sim, and there is a limit to how much those people can produce. A quick look at other trainsim sites shows a similar situation, with very few authors producing RS content.

Personally, I think there are three reasons for the shortage. Firstly, whatever its shortcomings, TSM was comparatively easy to learn compared to 3DC and texturing was relatively simple. Secondly, exporting to the sim was a walk in the park compared to the hoops you have to jump through to get content into RS (blueprints, filenames, LOD's, StencilShadow,Shaders, couplings etc). But to me the one thing that is really missed is an equivalent to Mr Vone's manual, how many queries were answered in the past by "read his book"? Consequently, I think many people are turned off by the hill they must climb to create reasonable content, whilst others, like myself, are struggling through the learning process and will eventually produce content, but not in the short term.

So, yes there is a shortage of freeware and some people are choosing to benefit from that by charging for those items they produce. Its a free country, they can charge if they wish, I can refuse to buy if I wish! Unfortunately this creates the situation that Big Vern refers to, where route builders have limted freeware assets to use but recognise that most people do not want to pay for every loco, sound and cabfile they need for the route.

However, I can only hope that the community will continue to develop its skills and the freeware will come. I do agree that, as Decapod has shown with his clutter items, converting MSTS models to RS would accellerate the process, and may be a gentler introduction to the mysteries of 3DC and RS, rather than modelling from scratch.

I do know that my own skills will improve quicker with the help of other community members (many thanks to the postings of Decapod, Kevmt Sly et al), so lets stay just that, a community and we will get there.

Acorncomputer wrote:...

http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1106189

...

To whom were you referring with the remark ... "and they work too".

John

I too am puzzled over the fact that Train Simulator comes before Rail Simulator in the index listing,

Thats because it shows as Microsoft Train Simulator - not Train Simulator and so is in its correct position alphabetically over Rail Simulator. Maybe that thread should be renamed Electronic Arts Rail Simulator which would change its priority. It might actually make things a tad clearer too as a lot of the general public dont know the difference between the two - to them they are both Train Simulators

johny wrote:

Acorncomputer wrote:...

http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1106189

...

To whom were you referring with the remark ... "and they work too".

John

Hi johny

The signalling on the Spa Valley Railway is not entirely conventional due to the tight layout at Tunbridge Wells West. I was pleased (and a bit surprised) at being able to get conventional signals to work in an unusual situation particularly as I am still very new to signalling and have to work out how it all works myself.

As regards route building, once up and running the procedures are not dis-similar to the existing sims, probably closer to MSTS than TRS.

I don't think this thread is turning into a "mine's bigger than yours" as regards personal sim preference. What we need to look at is how can we win over those who are holding out in MSTS to at least have another look at RS. What could RSDL do to help? Well, Mr Vone's Route Building Guide for MSTS has already been mentioned, maybe they need to look at collating all the documentation into one coherent manual or guide which could be sold for a notional price (I personally hate pdf documents). If people are still struggling with blueprints, particularly for rolling stock, does that need extra documentation or some sort of simplified interface. I know it's old, but in Train Driver 3, anyone could set up a loco by defining a few simple parameters via a series of menus and provide a simple graphic for a cab view and two or three sound samples for traction sound which the programme mixed accordingly. If people can't rise to the technical challenge of the new sim, then is there anything RSDL can do to dumb it down? As mentioned in the ABC... thread in the RS section, you don't actually have to put in a 3D cab when building a loco. RSDL have already said you can manipulate a 2D image to produce a cab.

This may seem anathema to some and may not please the die-hards who want bushes swaying in the breeze at every turn, but if the bar has been raised so high that the majority of producers can't or won't be bothered to reach it then...lower the bar a bit. This is train simming not Crysis FPS and most of us who have been with it since the pre-MSTS days would be happy to get what we can, even if it doesn't fit someone's idea of the "latest standard".