Atomic Systems

Hi

I still think that it is just a matter of time.

With reference to Rail Simulator, there are several promising freeware routes in progress but I know that working in your spare time (usually in the small hours) means that it takes months to complete anything of reasonable quality and speaking for myself, I aim to only release a complete route fully signalled and tested with some scenarios but even these last few sections of the project can add a month or two.

Patience is the key word and I am sure that the rate of availability for all types of freeware over a period of time for Rail Simulator will get faster and hopefully a snowball effect will arise with more content creators recognising the satisfaction that Rail Simulator can offer.

kevmt wrote:Must admit, though, that the trend of most new models by other people being payware is offputting (esp as I can't afford to buy them!) , and reckon that I will either end up going that way myself, or possibly even turning towards another hobby.

The sentiment expressed here is exactly what I fear might happen to the content creation aspect of the train simulation hobby. Creators who see the chance to earn money charge for their content or commit themselves to "work" for a publisher, and those who just want to participate in a hobby start looking aound for another interest, or get disillusioned.

The end result.....not that much in the way of substantial RS freeware content and an array of content you have to pay for. A permutation that will do nothing to promote RS or train simulation as a hobby for the masses.

I've seen a very much similar thing spoil...or should I say kill....a hobby I was involved in some years ago - radio controlled model car racing. There were clubs and groups all over the country racing cars for fun, and against each other. Model shops and suppliers coaxed individuals in to representing them by sponsoring them...and in a matter of less than two years, over 50% of the participants were priced out of the hobby by the spiralling costs of keeping their car anywhere near being competitive. This happened in both 1/8th and 1/12th scales. I know this was a different type of hobby......but the fact that once a hobby stops being a hobby, then many turn away for ever!

Has anyone actually worked out the ratio of payware to freeware train sim addons?

My guess is, based on many years of modeling for TS1, that modeling for RS, TRS or even the late lamented TS2, involves many more steps than those required for the old sim*. Of course, as people become more profficient the time factor decreases in some respects, except where that factor involves the amount of free time available to devote to the modeling, which is relatively constant unless a person's personal circumstances change.

The trouble is that end users have been used a fairly constant flow of new models for the old sim.....and some are acquirers, taking anything they fancy and thus get frustrated when nothing new shows up in the library for a few days. Fair enough, that's why stuff is placed in the library.

But what I call the serious end user is only interested in specific items, whether activities, routes and rollingstock. These users are more likely to be operational end users, rather than candy acquirers. They don't tend to download everything in sight.

The hobby can cope with both types of users, but in any case, patience is a virture.

*Modeling, texturing, respective processing protocols.

Cheers Bazza

Its not payware that will hinder the progres of RS .. what does hinder it is influence exerted to protect a vested interest.

think about it

Sly

...what does hinder it is influence exerted to protect a vested interest.

Eh?!

Uncertain what you mean there Sly, but as with any sim, there's room for payware and freeware. To a freeware modeler the time and effort expended is not about monetary value, the intrinsic value lies in creating something that's a challenge to make and for the satisfaction gained when the project goes well. The end user is the beneficiary and the modeler moves on to the next challenge.

Cheers Bazza

I'm a bit puzzled by the statement too. I've already released one route for RS with another one in development. At no time have I felt anything sinister going on or had anyone whispering in my ear, like a character in a Guy Ritchie movie, to protect any "vested interests". Of course it could be the routes I build are so obscure no one else would bother though a section of the Far North would in fact be ideal stamping ground for both the Class 158 and RS Derek's upcoming Class 37.

Edit:

Unless, thinking about it, the inverse is the case and the reference is actually to the MSTS hold-outs. Certainly there has been little or no serious response to my posing the question on the MSTS ELR board why it hasn't been considered for conversion to RS, or indeed from the other vast swathes of MSTS stock, scenery and route modellers as to why they still stick exclusively with an 8 year old game. Please clarify, Sly.

Due to the hundreds and hundreds of hours of work I've put into MSTS1 I put up my hand to having a vested interest in it. That does not stop me from being interested in what's going on with RS and other train simulators, too.

Cheers Bazza

bigvern wrote:
Certainly there has been little or no serious response to my posing the question on the MSTS ELR board why it hasn't been considered for conversion to RS, or indeed from the other vast swathes of MSTS stock, scenery and route modellers as to why they still stick exclusively with an 8 year old game. Please clarify, Sly.

I understand a lot of MSTS Stock was made with TSM. I'm assuming that there is no means of converting these to RS.

I think it does seem like a nice idea to have a comments section on each download, perhaps something to add (or perhaps already in) UKTS2 Matt?

Whilst the normal reply is simply to check the forums, there is perhaps a lot more merit to having comments directly on the page and contributors emailed when they receive a comment (like how tons of sites, from YouTube to DeviantART to Blogs to Facebook work with comment fields directly below their respective items). Failing that, perhaps a topic automatically being made on the forums by a bot or something for each new download, with a link on the page. I can definitely see how much of a 'void' it must seem for freeware developers to get no direct feedback, and feel hesitant to make their own topic for fear of seeming like they are plugging it too much or finding out that no-one wants to comment.

As for the payware situation, I think a lot of the problem is that what we're paying aren't really what has been described very optimistically by many as 'micropayments', and this is a situation which has occurred in a lot of gaming communities. They may not be £20/£30 things like a lot of the MSTS addons are, but at the same time, they don't come in a box, they usually come with less, and, unless they're a route which better justifies a higher price tag (not least because it doesn't involve the purchase of other items, at least hopefully not), definitely not 'micropayments'.

I'm sorry, but £10 per add-on when you're expected to buy multiple add-ons isn't a small price. I was put off Rail Simulator, and haven't played it in ages (and I was extremely enthusiastic about using it even when most instantly poo-pooed it), partly thanks to the high cost of every payware item, both from RSDL and from third parties. I hate to be critical of things and not give them a chance, but I simply can't afford to keep up the RS hobby. Thanks to it making a lot of MSTS pale in comparison, that also puts me off MSTS, a serious own goal for the community.

I can see the justification for having payware, particularly for difficult-to-make items, but I can't see the justification of the prices at all. For a lot of things, I simply couldn't justify shelling out £5 and up. 'Micropayments' should be just as they sound, under £5. This reminds me a lot of how EA or Valve or any of the other online content providers would always pupport to be providing things for a low cost, and then stick them up with a £10 price tag. For those with jobs, such prices may seem relatively low, but for those who are too young like myself, this prices them out of the market, which of course means there is less likely to be any 'new blood' in the community which has been a vital part of it for a long time.

As for the MSTS objects, I'd love to see these ported across to RS, indeed, now there really isn't any reason not to. I think TS2 ultimately proved to be a distraction, and, whilst it would've been fantastic to have seen it finished and released rather than the unfortunate fate that happened to one of the world's best development studios and a long running series, it's now time to re-evaluate where we stand.

Routes, of course, are a whole different story in terms of porting since they consist as a lot of different items, but, given the very generous offers from people like Sly401, I can't see the reason why people hold back from other items (remembering that, before being ported to a sim, a model is just that, a model in a graphics program along with some assorted sound files).

Finally, there's already some fantastic work done by RS developers which definitely made the sim a great thing to use back before I gave up on it (and I'm interested in returning if there's the right motivation), particularly with all the lovely little narrow gauge locos which look fantastic in the realistic gauges of RS. I can see a lot more potential from RS given that a lot of its features are well beyond MSTS, and I think we as a community simply need to tap it, even if that just means encouraging those who have the skills to do so.

Just my two pounds.

Cheers,
Richard

CaptainBazza wrote: My guess is, based on many years of modeling for TS1, that modeling for RS, TRS or even the late lamented TS2, involves many more steps than those required for the old sim*. Of course, as people become more profficient the time factor decreases in some respects, except where that factor involves the amount of free time available to devote to the modeling, which is relatively constant unless a person's personal circumstances change.

Modelling for RS is somewhat more involved then with MSTS, but once you get used to the different foibles of railsim, then modelling for it can be done in a reasonable time. As an example, the 2 locos below were modelled to the stage shown, in 12 days. In that time I've had a few real world problems, so work on them has not been continous. The quality might not please some, but I'm fairly happy with them.



Cheers,
Kevin

mendes wrote:

bigvern wrote:
Certainly there has been little or no serious response to my posing the question on the MSTS ELR board why it hasn't been considered for conversion to RS, or indeed from the other vast swathes of MSTS stock, scenery and route modellers as to why they still stick exclusively with an 8 year old game. Please clarify, Sly.

I understand a lot of MSTS Stock was made with TSM. I'm assuming that there is no means of converting these to RS.

I'm fairly certain that you can now import TSM files into Canvas, which could then be re-exported into Railsim.

Cheers,
Kevin

Riche wrote:I think it does seem like a nice idea to have a comments section on each download, perhaps something to add (or perhaps already in) UKTS2 Matt?

Whilst the normal reply is simply to check the forums, there is perhaps a lot more merit to having comments directly on the page and contributors emailed when they receive a comment (like how tons of sites, from YouTube to DeviantART to Blogs to Facebook work with comment fields directly below their respective items). Failing that, perhaps a topic automatically being made on the forums by a bot or something for each new download, with a link on the page. I can definitely see how much of a 'void' it must seem for freeware developers to get no direct feedback, and feel hesitant to make their own topic for fear of seeming like they are plugging it too much or finding out that no-one wants to comment.

This has been discussed before and it is fraught with problems. The problem with allowing comments or ratings on uploaded content is that a few people can make uncalled for comments because they can't get it to work and then spark a flamewar that leads to the author pulling the content and going off in a huff and not doing any more work. You only have to look at the sites you have mentioned to see some really nasty comments. The moderators do not not need the extra overhead that automatically creating a topic for each uploaded file would generate.

Riche wrote:I can see the justification for having payware, particularly for difficult-to-make items, but I can't see the justification of the prices at all. For a lot of things, I simply couldn't justify shelling out £5 and up. 'Micropayments' should be just as they sound, under £5. This reminds me a lot of how EA or Valve or any of the other online content providers would always pupport to be providing things for a low cost, and then stick them up with a £10 price tag. For those with jobs, such prices may seem relatively low, but for those who are too young like myself, this prices them out of the market, which of course means there is less likely to be any 'new blood' in the community which has been a vital part of it for a long time.

OK - point taken (up to a point). When I was 13 I was desperate to buy a Dragon 32 computer (go Google for it) and I hauled my butt out of bed at 6:00 each morning to do a paper delivery round before going to school. When I finally had enough money they were not in stock so I went for an Atari 800 instead.

You have to live within your means and prioritise spending - especially in the current climate.

Easilyconfused wrote:This has been discussed before and it is fraught with problems. The problem with allowing comments or ratings on uploaded content is that a few people can make uncalled for comments because they can't get it to work and then spark a flamewar that leads to the author pulling the content and going off in a huff and not doing any more work. You only have to look at the sites you have mentioned to see some really nasty comments. The moderators do not not need the extra overhead that automatically creating a topic for each uploaded file would generate.

Then make things simple: provide a hide/delete button for the author on each comment (the former being a DeviantART-style one which reduces the comment to a single line saying 'this comment has been hidden by the author' and the latter being just as it says on the tin) along with a 'report as spam' button.

Leave it up to the author to decide whether they're mature enough to take constructive criticism (which, if worded right, they should be, otherwise it's likely to just be a flame). Flames on a comment thread can then easily be deleted. Allowing the author to also block particular problematic users from commenting on their topic allows perpetual flames to be prevented. Where's the problem?

Alternatively, make it so that the authors have to approve comments themselves before they appear.

Ratings should be avoided since they are highly rudimentary and, as Yahtzee puts it (do a Google search for Zero Punctuation if you don't know who I'm referring to), are simply for people who haven't the time to read reviews and want a quick X out of 10 score for something. They are also easily biased and subject to high levels of optimism or pessimism, such as how a 5 on a scale from 1 to 10 in video games is seen as a poor score when in reality it should be average.

Easilyconfused wrote:You have to live within your means and prioritise spending - especially in the current climate.

Then who are the £10 packs (and, having checked the RSDL site and the various links given on it to third parties, I fear things may actually be worse than I thought in terms of price) aimed at? Particularly those for wagons or carriages or scenario packs or sounds which always used to be treated as constituent parts of an overall product and hence would be priced lower than locos (with routes being priced highest) a few years ago, but which are now suddenly on the same level as trains.

I know that inevitably I'm now going to get a lot of comments from people saying "I've been making audio for ages and I think it's just as important as the locos it goes with", which I can agree with to some extent as no-one's effort should be denounced, but if everyone goes for the same large slice of the pie (aka my wallet) then there simply isn't going to be enough to go around.

Either stop calling them as such make the prices fit the name of micropayments. Actual micropayments (£3/£4 or under) are fairly reasonable, given that the UKTS CDs are only slightly higher (£4.40) and they involve relatively expensive physical media and, in the vast majority of cases, a lot of fantastic content squeezed onto them. They also give back to the author with free months of subscription on UKTS, and hence encourage them to make even more high quality add-ons. I'm actually rather surprised no-one (or at least no-one I know of) has taken this route with RS.

The point of digital media is to cut costs, not allow them to be increased to absurd amounts. When physical add-ons and DVD add-ons are priced the same, it seems we're getting to a very worrying situation.

Just another two pounds from me.

Riche wrote:

Easilyconfused wrote:This has been discussed before and it is fraught with problems. The problem with allowing comments or ratings on uploaded content is that a few people can make uncalled for comments because they can't get it to work and then spark a flamewar that leads to the author pulling the content and going off in a huff and not doing any more work. You only have to look at the sites you have mentioned to see some really nasty comments. The moderators do not not need the extra overhead that automatically creating a topic for each uploaded file would generate.

Then make things simple: provide a hide/delete button for the author on each comment (the former being a DeviantART-style one which reduces the comment to a single line saying 'this comment has been hidden by the author' and the latter being just as it says on the tin) along with a 'report as spam' button.

OK - so who would they report it to ? The moderators ? Allowing the authors to hide feedback runs completely against your proposal - it assumes the authors can suppress adverse comments about their creations.

Riche wrote:Leave it up to the author to decide whether they're mature enough to take constructive criticism (which, if worded right, they should be, otherwise it's likely to just be a flame). Flames on a comment thread can then easily be deleted. Allowing the author to also block particular problematic users from commenting on their topic allows perpetual flames to be prevented. Where's the problem?

That is such a bad idea - the problem as far as I see it is that content creators provide a valuable source of content. In my experience as a moderator and on the UKTS support system we get a lot of people who have little or no idea how their PC works installing stuff. When that goes .-over-tit (to coin an engineering expression) they generally fire incoherent posts into the forums - in some cases slagging off the authors of downloads when in fact it is the end-users ignorance that is the problem

Riche wrote:Alternatively, make it so that the authors have to approve comments themselves before they appear.

Nice idea but then UKTS would be accused of censorship of adverse comments since the authors would not approve them.

Easilyconfused wrote:

Riche wrote:Alternatively, make it so that the authors have to approve comments themselves before they appear.

Nice idea but then UKTS would be accused of censorship of adverse comments since the authors would not approve them.

I have seen this in general said about UKTS on other forums already ( I don't agree btw as I happen to think civility is a good attribute to have ).

John