Payware Models and the Forums

[phat2003uk]

At the moment, threads touting the release of scenario packs just tend to draw comments along the lines of, "Who's going to pay £7 for a bunch of scenarios?" I know. I am guilty...

I think touting is a bit of a strong word to use, something which suggests selling in an aggressive manner. On the flip side, someone recently posted saying they wouldn't have found my scenario packs if it wasn't for my most recent forum post; the person in question being very happy with them.

I personally don't see what's wrong with a post about a product release every so often, if it's the difference between someone's interest in Rail Simulator being reinvigorated or not then what's the problem? If you are someone who disagrees with the product which is fair enough then just feel free to ignore the post and carry on. From my experience, a lot more people are pleased with the value of my products opposed to the few who aren't which suggests it's in the interests of the community to at least give them the choice.

[thenudehamster]

Once again it looks as if I've made one of my rare appearances only to drop straight into another argument. The Commercial (or Payware) versus Freeware argument has done the rounds more often than I've been on the boards in the last couple of years. There is no solution that will please everyone, but may I suggest that a modicum of common sense be applied before all the arguments get out of hand. To take one point raised earlier in this discussion, I'm not sure it's fair to say that UKTS has always been a Freeware site - you only have to look at the Reviews to see that commercial products are given a sizeable airing. I do have to agree, though that using the forums for blatant advertising of a specific products is against the spirit of the site if not against the precise letter of the rules. I personally have no objection to a small link to a commercial vendors website being placed in the signature of a member of that company; in similar fashion to mention that the upcoming Canardly-Makeit Railway's 0-6-4WT being made by Hammerem Togetha Models should be a sight to behold is acceptable. Posting a dozen pictures and the price along with an order form would be a little OTT.

I'm sure that the Moderation team are well able to apply their usual level of neutrality and civility in asking that offending material be removed; similarly most of the commercial developers who frequent these forums are pretty reasonable guys and do not go that step too far.
Many of us have a mix of pay-and free-ware in our collections and it's sometimes difficult to keep track of what's what when making an activity; on occasion a commercial item may be the only one which suits it for reasons of, for example, historical accuracy. Then, as a developer, you're stuck. As for whether it should be indicated that a particular activity requires commercial product to run, that has always been the usual practice within the notes and stock lists for the activity. If you don't have, and don't want to buy, the products, then you have two choices - substitute another item for the commercial product, or do without the activity.

I can't see a major problem.

[richard222]

This is again, a pointless argument we are having. Arguing here WILL NOT acheive anything. With what happened last time, I see no chance of the mods / Admins banning commercialism, and I think that would be a shame

Perhaps this topic should be locked while the mods / admins make a decision on whether the original suggestion I made has mileage, or whether to bin it altogether, or introduce something similar in their own forum, before we dig ourselves into another almighty mess in this thread.

Richard

[Easilyconfused]

Richard,

your initial suggestion is noted. There is no need for the thread to be locked until any decision is taken. The thread will only become "an almighty mess" if people post intolerant views or get abusive. If that happens the moderators have the tools at their disposal to deal with it.

What happens on the forums is in the hands of the admins and the authority they delegate to the moderator team. If a change to the thread titling conventions is determined to be required it can be implemented and would be notified by a post in the Site Admin forum and the relevant amendments in the forum guidelines.

[buffy500]

3 pages and its still polite and no one has been caught in the eye by a low flying teddie.




I think we are all grown up now !

[ianmacmillan]

I think we are all grown up now !

Famous last words.

[mendes]

Why does anyone (freeware or payware) have to post stuff about their WIP at all?
If the end product is any good then word of mouth will sell it to the punters.

[dkightley]

Why does anyone (freeware or payware) have to post stuff about their WIP at all?
If the end product is any good then word of mouth will sell it to the punters.

I think that is a very unfair thing to say about all of the UKTS members who have contributed to the hundreds, if not thousands of add-ons that are available in the file download area for the likes of you to download and use free of charge.

I post about my "stuff"...as a freeware developer, that is....because I build for my own pleasure...not to sell to anyone, those you casually refer to as "the punters". I believe that many members of the forum have an interest in what other members are doing, and some are interested in seeing and reading about add-ons that are being developed. This interest could could quite easily give them the urge to even have a go at building themselves.

My personal opinion (which is not the UKTS official line) about posts announcing the availability of, or showing work in progress on payware add-ons is that it is a form of advertising, and as such should not be allowed on the forum without some form of fee. The UKTS forums cost money to run, and I believe anyone gaining financially from using the forum should contribute towards the running costs.

[KiwiPete]

Mendes, I think you have totally missed the point, posting WIP (WORK in PROGRESS) picts is a very useful tool as far as I am concerned.
We use it all the time at TSNZ, and it helps in a number of ways.
One. it allows the other modellers to be informed whats being built by whom, that way it allows there to be some meeting of the minds. Just think what would happen if everyone built the same model.
Two. It lets others comment on the models progress, so if you get something not quite right, back to front or totally wrong theres more chance that someone will spot it and comment.
Three. It keeps the Hobby in the spot lights, and after all it is a hobby.Remember all these Model Railway magazines we see with stunning picts in them of layouts, Surely they are all WIP. I have never meet a modeller yet that had finished, or considered his model complete regardless of the Version number he tacks on the end of the name.

VERY Much a WIP

[CaptainBazza]

I entirely agree with the points that BigPeter is making.

Cheers Bazza

[gswindale]

Have to say I agree with Bazza and BigPeter - particularly with regards to freeware models etc.

Seeing shots and updates of Work In Progress gives me ideas about where to take things in the future (I can start to plan new acts etc). It is also a help for those who are working alone (generally freeware) as they can get advice from the community as to how to improve things. Those building commercially normally have other people working with them to provide that advice.

[RiscaStation]

Hi

Having read through three pages of debate I must agree with Doug when he says;-

"My personal opinion (which is not the UKTS official line) about posts announcing the availability of, or showing work in progress on payware add-ons is that it is a form of advertising, and as such should not be allowed on the forum without some form of fee. The UKTS forums cost money to run, and I believe anyone gaining financially from using the forum should contribute towards the running costs."

If you want to advertise then you must expect to pay for it. You don't get some thing for nothing!
Perhaps it is time for UKTS to obtain monies for the use of its site. Every one else is looking to make money from others regardless of the amount! This is supposed to be a hobby!
If you want to advertise on the UKTS site then support the site and make a contribution to its running costs.

Regards
Mike

[buffy500]

HiIf you want to advertise then you must expect to pay for it. You don't get some thing for nothing!
Perhaps it is time for UKTS to obtain monies for the use of its site. Every one else is looking to make money from others regardless of the amount! This is supposed to be a hobby!
If you want to advertise on the UKTS site then support the site and make a contribution to its running costs.

This is where the line starts to get fuzzy and not as simple as it first appears. (And I do hesitate to go down this line as I think this is where it all went wrong last time).

BUT, It IS a two way street. (It might only be a cycle track going the other way but its certainly not a one way street)

I do understand that running the site is not free.

Income from this site comes from CD sales and subscriptions.

Without content to download people are unlikely to want to subscribe.
Without some exclusive content there would be some holes in the community CD's, while not stopping them having been published but possibly making them less desirable.
Where does a reasonable amount of the content come from ?
A decent % of the content of this site came from people who went on to do commercial work or is more obviously linked to commercial models.
Commercial releases do in someway keep MSTS in the public's eye, which also benefits UKTS by keeping the market alive and brings some new members to the site.

Before anyone over reacts to the above comment, I do stress that I actually don't have a issue with the original suggestion made so far, and I've not actively made or instructed anyone else to make a promotional post on MT's behalf so an outright ban would not actually have any effect on whats left of MT's MSTS operations.
I'm also not suggesting/threatening that content should be removed as a reaction to it.

Just trying to show the other side of the argument.

[KiwiPete]

Maybe if the Commercial builders supplied free product to UKTS as way of payment, and had their own forum in which to post the WIP etc.
That way UKTS could make some money from the product sale and or use them as prizes in a competition of some sort.
There has be a happy Medium some where.

Buffy.... How we suddenly get on to the subject of outright bans etc, Have I missed something???

[dkightley]

I guess the reference could be from my statement "...should not be allowed on the forum...", which if taken out of context is another way of saying "a ban".

Perhaps I ought to have emphasized I was offering my opinion about the subject....and not offering a solution. I'm very well aware of the history of the payware versus freeware debate, and have to confess I have never had any idea of what the solution should or could be.

As Buffy has said, there is a grey area where payware has a positive effect on the community and the hobby, etc. However I'm sure there's an equal grey area where payware has a negative effect on the hobby.....and the conflict between these good and bad effects has probably been the sticking point that has caused this whole subject to rumble on.

One thing I believe is that MSTS has had a fairly good balance between payware and freeware content, and one has and still does compliment the other. On the other hand, at the moment I fear that Rail Simulator has an imbalance in favour of payware that is not going to be good for the hobby or the product....there needs to be a shift towards more freeware and less payware until the product reaches a point where the community-built content can maintain the momentum.