Announcement re: commercial pre-release screenshots rule

[buffy500]

This polarisation is actually a very good thing - and strengthens the need for UKTS to remain in place - otherwise the entire community would be at the beck and call of a small group of commercial organisations.

I think you have hit the nail on the head, apart from the small matter of withdrawn files, I think that this is for the 'best' for UKTS.
It is an independant site, and as such its probably good to be as far away from any real links with any outside influence as possible.

Commercial people posting on the forum offends some, and human nature is that its very difficult to see something you don't agree with being said about something you've spent a significant amount of time on without at least getting het up about it. Its probably better all round to be honest if we are not involved. People can then say exactly what they like.

[AndiS]

On the one hand, the informative parts of recent threads show that payware people rarely make "the big money" and freeware cannot be completely for free for technical reasons, one would think that there is no justification for a polarisation.

On the other hand, organising the two main streams in two different forums/servers/groups certainly will reduce pressure in many fractions. I for one was worried how much spare time moderators devote to provide a level battle ground for the debate of payware. I saw some serious danger for UKTS in a group of moderators being tired of the job at the same time.

Now that UKTS can refocus on freeware, the time donated by the moderators is expected go into organising (and discussing) the creation of freeware. In parallel, the stakeholders of payware will find their way to deal with the "freedom of speech versus freedom from abuse" issue. This is much easier done in a forum run by an association of payware groups than in a forum of (one) independent person(s). At least that would be my private hope.

[Lad491]

Unfortunately though, i dont think it will solve the freeware by payware authors and payware by freeware authors problem which has lead to much of the trouble here. Will payware authors now not be able to provide freeware in case they have another falling out and withdraw it in a huff, and will freeware authors step back from doing payware for much the same reason.

Separating the two parties might be good for the forum but wont resolve the underlying issue.

[lateagain]

This polarisation is actually a very good thing - and strengthens the need for UKTS to remain in place - otherwise the entire community would be at the beck and call of a small group of commercial organisations.

I think you have hit the nail on the head, apart from the small matter of withdrawn files, I think that this is for the 'best' for UKTS.
It is an independant site, and as such its probably good to be as far away from any real links with any outside influence as possible.

Commercial people posting on the forum offends some, and human nature is that its very difficult to see something you don't agree with being said about something you've spent a significant amount of time on without at least getting het up about it. Its probably better all round to be honest if we are not involved. People can then say exactly what they like.

Reluctantly I have to agree that this is the right track. The issue with the withdrawn files does however present one issue. Would this not be more amicable if there was a drawing of a line. A mutually agreed End/Start date.

If the modellers would agree to reinstate files and permissions "given" prior to this date even if they are only to be downloadable from a Joint Association Site or Commercial Site as freeware from that date on, then would this not cause the minimum damage to innocent parties and give a level playing field for future development. everyone would know exactly where they stood.

As a sim fan I can only look for amicable compromise and ask the question.

Geoff

[buffy500]

Reluctantly I have to agree that this is the right track.

I think that over the years it has been proven that either nothing works, or a small element in the userbase refuses to let anything work.

[mickoo]

Will payware authors now not be able to provide freeware in case they have another falling out and withdraw it in a huff, and will freeware authors step back from doing payware for much the same reason.

Separating the two parties might be good for the forum but wont resolve the underlying issue.

Payware freeware will still be available....from there respective sites...there by negating removing in a 'huff' argument over night.

Its my freeware and l'm entitled to host it where l like and withdraw where l like, note l have not with drawn from CDs but am still, like others in the same boat being cast as horrid little demons. I have withdrawn from future CDs and from the library and thats it.

Best

Michael

[nestfilms]

BATS site have said that terry's files and other withdrawn files will be downloadable from their site eventually

[johndibben]

Oh no .... it still rumbles on.

I've something new to say though after having a chance to mull it over for a few days.

The old system worked for the vast majority but clearly not for all.

There no real anti-payware feeling these days and certainly nothing which can't be handled.

Criticism and anti-payware arn't the same. I can't see how that can be avoided. If someone doesn't get satisfaction elsewhere, they come here and will continue to do so unless all payware people leave and payware discussion is banned.

That assumes all commercials leave. That assumes all on the periphery of commercial groups, by far the largest number, leave. That assumes they want to. Most of what I've heard, and that's plenty over the past few days, from all sides and members with very wide interests, suggests exactly the opposite to me.

So far the only talk of this has come from two senior MT figures who associated Tim Court in the plans.

By far the largest omission is Kuju.

UKTS stands for so much more than these narrow perameters.

We will lose some very valued members and they will lose us. Not sure who will lose most.

There's also many people turning sommersaults attempting to remain loyal to all those they feel a loyalty to.

The freeware on here links the the two sides and although it's dwindled significantly over the past twelve months, it's still a very significant asset. I'm unsure what the long term intentions are in this respect but I'd urge far more careful thought than seen of late.

I'm cool. I've nothing to lose or gain from this .... probably gain. Prefer people to stick together as a community divided will never be as strong as the whole. That wouldn't suit my interest even for the added incentive and enjoyment I've received.

I've always got Trainz to keep me busy as I'm open to all simming and head only where the most enjoyment appears to be plus private stuff which isn't affected.

I'll say my bit as always , have serious concerns but content to go with the flow and I genuinely mean that.

Cheers

John

[lateagain]

John,

Don't knock it rumbling on.

If the Cold war hadn't "rumbled on" and gone "hot" we wouldn't be in a position to rumble on. On the other hand 40 years would be a tad too long

I don't see that the two sites needs to be that devisive. A divorce doesn't have to result in mutual hatred. I know the statistics aren't on my side in THAT arguement so let's look at exceptions that make the rule?

I'd hope this future divide would be like Europe. Different entities with free passage and trade community wide. It can be if people will look at it that way.

Geoff

[johndibben]

I don't see that the two sites needs to be that devisive.

Me neither but it ain't our idea

[dikkidee]

For the attention of Matt and other Contributors, Friends and Fellow Simmers at UKTS.

Having spent hours reading and trying to understand this mullarky it seems to me an individual has set out to break this community and has partially succeded. I feel many things over this matter both for members and contributors freeware and payware and I think I now understand the thought processes of all parties and respect them. However it is things like this that politically starts world wars, a major fall out and nobody at the end can remember what actually started it.

I have answered a post over on the BATS forum posted by our friend SP762 which I think was very apt and pertinent and I humbly seek his indulgence to post a copy of it and my reply here.

Regards, Dick. Places on tin hat and dives for foxhole!!.


SP762 said (to BATS)

My first post to this forum, I think, although I've been a regular browser.

I've been on my holidays, with the PC turned off - as some of you may know, I'm a mod at UKTS, and have been for a while.

However, I am a keen supporter of all quality trainsims and products.

I logged on to UKTS yesterday for the first time in a month or so and was incredibly surprised, nay gobsmacked over all this furore.

My analysis leads me to believe that the 010106 rule was applied following repeated cynical behaviour by Ken Austin at Europeanbahn. On the one hand, he was threatening Matt with legal action if anything bad was said about his products. On the other, he was using his cronies to post pre-release screenshots of EB products.

The rationale of the moderation team was that EB shouldn't be allowed to persist with this tactic, but couldn't be banned alone because of the threat of legal action.

Therefore a blanket ban on commercial screenshots was imposed - and this has been the result. So, who's to blame?

I can attest to the angst and grief that Ken has caused Matt, UKTS and thus the community in the past - looks like he's still got some venom in him. He appears to really hate Matt Peddlesden and want to cause him harm. Ultimately, his vendetta and manipulations toward this end have impacted on the rest of us, and caused grief for his associates who retain ties in the freeware community.

If you resent this sort of attitude, don't buy EB products. Let's face it, the quality pales in comparison with BATS or MT stuff anyway.

My hope is that the new 'association' does not pattern itself on Ken's petty litigious behaviour. This approach would not appear to be beneficial to the train simulator community, of which we are all members.

In passing, I'd like to thank all the commercial developers who have contributed freeware in the past. I've corresponded with many of you from thousands of miles away, and I'd like you to know that I don't have an axe to grind.

Cheers

Mike Wilson
---------------------------

Dikkidee Said to (Blue Arrow)

Hello evrybody at Blue Arrow and on these forums.

This is my first post here although I have purchased most of Blue Arrow's products and fine products they are too and will continue to do so.

Yes I am and have been for some considerable time a registered member of UKTS and appreciate the work of Matt, and all the contributors both freeware and commercial to UKTS and been quite voiceful to this end.

Having just spent hours reading the different threads on this subject both here and at UKTS and being in the first place somewhat bemmused by it all I would like to say that I concur fully with what SP762 has just stated, it could not have been said better.

The only person who has gained anything out of all this is the management at Eurpeanbahn - and yes I have purchased their products in the past and Pageants Field is vastly inferior to other routes that are available both commercially and freeware - a complete waste of money. It infuriates me that the snide action of these individuals has such a far reaching damaging impact on the community as a whole. As a matter of principle I will never purchase products from Europbahn again, have unistalled the routes purchased from them and given the CD's to the local Cancer Research shop.

Just after Christmas I sent a year's worth of work to Pete Peddlesden on an alternative Steam Era route of Tim Courts Mid East with Tim's blessings and the blessings from other persons where required. I doubt if this will now see the light of day, pity because I wanted it "right" and delayed it untill I got it "right". I don't want any gain from it - just the pleasure of the thought of other people enjoying the route as much as I do

Once again well said SP762.

BATS I think you do a great job I have no gripes with you, 3DTS or Making Tracks.


Regards, Dick.

[jbilton]

Just after Christmas I sent a year's worth of work to Pete Peddlesden on an alternative Steam Era route of Tim Courts Mid East with Tim's blessings and the blessings from other persons where required. I doubt if this will now see the light of day, pity because I wanted it "right" and delayed it untill I got it "right". I don't want any gain from it - just the pleasure of the thought of other people enjoying the route as much as I do

Once again well said SP762.

BATS I think you do a great job I have no gripes with you, 3DTS or Making Tracks.


Regards, Dick.

Just to add, and claify, ALL Permissions for CD content for my stuff still remain and nothing changes - this includes routes still being built.

Hope this clears things up.

Hope this helps.
Cheers
Jon

[NeutronIC]

Additional clarification to Jon, there are 36 of Terry's objects in Mideast and Terry has not informed me that I can continue to distribute his work on the Mideast CD so until those objects are replaced, irrespective of Tim's most generous agreement to continue permission for us to distribute his route, it will have to be stopped and other variants postponed.

Terry might have told Tim it was ok, but the withdrawal of permission to distribute Terry's items on £4.50 cd's was from us, if I hear from Terry re-granting permission for the Mideast £4.50 cd to include his work then of course we will ensure it continues to be available.

Additionally, I believe there are plans to make Dick's Steam Era version of Mideast available as a download (but don't quote me on that), and unconfirmed reports so far indicate Terry is happy for downloadable routes from UKTrainSim to continue to include his work, until I get clarification from Terry about that point however I am hesitant to spend much time preparing downloadable versions of anything.

Shouldn't be too long though at the rate the guys are making replacement items.

Matt.

[johndibben]

For the attention of Matt and other Contributors, Friends and Fellow Simmers at UKTS.

Having spent hours reading and trying to understand this mullarky it seems to me an individual has set out to break this community and has partially succeded. I feel many things over this matter both for members and contributors freeware and payware and I think I now understand the thought processes of all parties and respect them. However it is things like this that politically starts world wars, a major fall out and nobody at the end can remember what actually started it.

I have answered a post over on the BATS forum posted by our friend SP762 which I think was very apt and pertinent and I humbly seek his indulgence to post a copy of it and my reply here.

Regards, Dick. Places on tin hat and dives for foxhole!!.

Well it certainly has the potential cause explosions

It's not normally good practice to quote someone else on another forum and place it elsewhere. Mike is a moderator here and possibly posted on the BA forum for that reason. We're safest stating our own views and quoting from the same thread or at least the same website.

Events have moved on. The whole issue has evolved into something wider which it's been said was brewing for some time.

Skipton is now affected. I know no one who dislikes Pat Dalton. He's a very respected figure around here.

I'm in no position to deny any of what's been said above nor is it news. I'd suggest it has done nothing more than bring events forward. The reaction was far too swift and organised to be a gut response. It would be ludicrous to attempt to combat any words from EB over a year ago by taking actions bound to alienate most of the community. Those involved are far more sensible and intelligent for that.

This is taking the issue full circle and backwards.

There's always been personal issues. It's clear from all involved we've gone beyond that now and we'll see whether the moves prove to be the solution the individuals seek.

UKTS is the only one likely to gain if the scenario being followed takes its logical course. No one's going to win. That's one thing everyone should be clear about. That leaves the members of UKTS, the representative of UK trainsimming for over four years, clearly the injured party who're rallying around that with which they're familiar in manner they couldn't have dreamed of only weeks ago.

Look at it that way and what is there to complain about?

Who want's to rock the good ship UKTS further?

Cheers

John

[lateagain]

Well I have to say that the news about Skipton is just about the straw that breaks the camels back.

Name and Shame.

You owe that to Malcolm Roper, although he may have been a bigger man than me with a bigger heart for forgiveness!

What hurt has been done to this person or persons that can possibly justify this action????

I can only hope that this total meanness of spirit and spitefulness is not due to ill health impairing the judgement of whoever is taking this action.

I'd also like to thank Dick for his suggestions for EB's discs. I hope that they'll be withdrawn from the CD ordering.

I think we're entitled to a list of names of those who've taken action so that we might be sure that we can make informed choices about whether or not to make future purchases.

If they want to hit out at us let them have the courage to identify themselves. At the moment they come about the level of muggers or graphitti smearers in my level of respect.

Give them space to justify their actions. I'm very angry but I can still listen to the other side of this story. It had better be good though.

I'm sorry that this is so negative but when people start lashing out at innocent parties I want to be counted.

Geoff