UKTrainSim 2

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NeutronIC
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UKTrainSim 2

Post by NeutronIC »

Perhaps it seems a little absurd to be talking about UKTrainSim 2 while the current one is in such a state... Still, i'm going to do it anyway, let nobody ever accuse me of being 'sane' or 'normal' :)

The biggest problem we are having after this move is plain and simply that everything is written in PHP and PHP sucks on Windows - not Windows fault I stress to add, the PHP developers are simply only really interested in the Linux world and any bugs raised on the Windows side of things are brashly brushed off as "oh thats a windows problem" and ignored, when it could be fixed by them for their code.

Still, bitching aside...

Since I got in to .NET and C# it's been my plan to get all of UKTS over to it as it's a much smarter and more stable environment, not to mention shed loads quicker.

I've also been thinking that the new site should fix a number of other issues in the 'wider' picture, and some recent brainstorms are what bring me to the reason for this post. Now that I am the only person at Atomic doing development and UKTS is the only main site that we do I can focus all my efforts on that - and with the system running so poorly as it is right now, it's time to get my butt in gear and get UKTS 2 on the rails.

There are a number of significant issues that I can see, so let's work them through.

These are not a statement of how it WILL work, these are my thoughts, I have very clear ideas as to how to achieve these things but since it is in some cases quite a radical change to the way things work (particular from the uploaders perspective) I want to get buy-in from you guys first before I spend weeks writing this :)

Problem: The not-so computer literate
People who are new to computers and train sim find it hard or impossible to install add-ons downloaded unless they are a self extracting EXE file but even then they are usually in a ZIP (which I prefer btw so I'm not complaining about that) and as a result they don't necessarily know what to do to get inside the ZIP. When add-ons are eventually installed, they usually have the worst cab or sounds (usually default because the author can't rely on things being installed unless they package it with the add-on you download) and often don't appear because a consist is needed.

Solution:
Make it so that UKTS integrates with MSTS. Downloading a loco is the same as installing it, expert users can stop the installation process from happening if they wish, but by default it should just go ahead and get it installed for the user when it is downloaded. It should also find the best cab and sounds that are on the system and perhaps recommend cab and sounds that the user might want to download, at the end of the day, it should all be auto configured and the user should not need to know what 'eng' or 'cvf' means ever again. In the name of smaller downloads, none of these will be self installing EXE files.

Problem Part A: Uploading files is a bitch.
FTP sideload is one way, it's easy except for that bloody awful text file you have to make with everything in it correctly or else it just fails to do anything at all. Web based upload is ok, but often has problems with uploads aborting part way through and no good reason as to why except me blaming it on ISP's and timeout's or upload limits (which I stand by!) :).

Problem Part B: No two files are alike, or very few :)
One file has a flat directory full of files and a readme saying where they go. Another has a directory structure but you have to know what folder to put it in and make the loco folder for example. Another has the loco folder but you still have to copy it all. Another has a cab too, another has a couple of sound files, another is self installing. It's a nightmare for end users.

Solution to both: Automate it.
One wizard that will allow you to package everything up in a uniform way every time. The packaged file will work 100% with the download mechanism detailed above.
How about when you want to have a file that is just a reskin of another, why make people download the whole thing? Or maybe you have a new horn but it needs the rest of the Kiha (or something else) sounds to actually function completely - tell the packager that and when the user installs it, it can do the pre-copying bits first and then overlay your file on the top. It can get dependant files before hand too such as the original loco that was reskinned, automatically.

Problem Part A: Even 'trusted' users screw it up sometimes!
Missing pictures anyone?

Problem Part B: Total mess that is the classification system
So we now have four trillion (give or take a few) operating companies, including about 500 variations of 'British Rail', 'BR', 'B.R.', 'B-R' and so forth.

Solution:
No more trusted users; that's not a slight to those that are trusted at the moment! All files will be moderated for approval before they go online. No user will be able to make a new classification for their upload, they can pick from existing or suggest alternates and then one of the moderation team will alter it or create the suggested classification.
It also means that we can go in and make relationships to other files before the file goes online to make the file that much more 'visible' to people browsing.


Problem: Activities? Ugh.
You download an activity. You then spend the next 18 evenings downloading the necessary stock and installing it, configuring it, then realising the author missed an item out or got one or two of them wrong. Not surprising, it's a hellish thing to properly catalog the needed stock for an activity and errors are bound to happen, but it doesn't help the frustration.

Solution:
You want an activity? Easy. Click on it, it says "you have 4 of the needed items, you need 18 more, download?" You say 'yes', then it says "downloaded, would you like to install them?" you say 'yes'. It says "Stock installed and verified, install activity?" you sayd 'yes', and then you play the activity.

Problem: Route installation, how many times can it go wrong?
So you downloaded the route, and you definitely definitely read the readme file but it still won't work when you try to run it. Shame you missed the bit that said it needed XTracks / UKFineScale etc installed...
What's that about missing magnetic platforms?

Solution:
Easy. You say you want a route, it says "This route requires XTracks, which you do not have, would you like to install it?" You say yes. "This route requires magnetic platforms kit 4, which you have. Install route?" - that would be so much easier.


There's lots of technical hurdles to achieve the above but I want to see what the 'social' hurdles are first and see what other ideas people have. I'm looking at something that's easier to use but just as powerful as the Auran Download Station, but for Train Simulator.

Thoughts on a post card, or at least in a response to this post :)

Matt.
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Post by martinhodgson »

Sounds good Matt - I assume it's a while before we see it?
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NeutronIC
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Post by NeutronIC »

My priority now is to work on this, so sooner than you think.

The proposed format of delivery will be:

A brand new web site with the new stream lined look and feel geared around being very fast load times, there will be NO web based upload facility.

A brand new Windows client that will allow you to completely access the site without using the web. It will use Web Services underneath so it will look just like web access to your office or ISP and won't have firewall issues. Browse news, the library, search, download files, installs etc. It will also download the entire library database and then just keep it up to date so you can browse and queue up downloads without having to necessarily go online even, then when you go online you can let it get on with it and it'll look after resume and so forth. All uploads will be through this Windows client, this will do the packaging, the installation and all the clever stuff.

Once it's designed, I will make every effort to get it online asap.

Matt.
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Post by rachaelwinn »

Wow! If all thats really possible go for it Matt.
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Post by johnarran »

It will also download the entire library database and then just keep it up to date so you can browse and queue up downloads without having to necessarily go online even, then when you go online you can let it get on with it and it'll look after resume and so forth.
Hi Matt,

Are you saying that everybody will have a copy of the library database downloaded to their PC or have I read it wrong? If you are then I'm not sure that this will be the best way forward. This philosophy was adopted by JANET when it ran an X25 network (only the library contained host addresses rather than filenames), it proved difficult to manage and involved frequent updates. Before the days of TCP/IP (showing my age).

Hope I've read it wrong.

I have other questions and maybe some suggestions, best kept for later. One question at a time. :)

John
Author of South Wales Railways - Everything West of Bridgend

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Post by NeutronIC »

Just the key bits of the database, not the actual files :)

I.e. you'll have all the file id's, titles, descriptions etc but not the files. Optionally you might be able to also have all the thumbnails downloaded as well.

That way you can browse the library without having to go through the site directly, you'd only need to 'connect' to be able to actually download a file or to update your database.

To give you an idea, it would probably be about 5-10 meg for the database and wouldn't necessarily be required for those that didn't want to anyway.

Matt.
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Post by buffy500 »

Matt,

This sounds great.
You should be a commercial software developer.










oh, you are.
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Post by ianm42 »

Sounds good to me.

Some thoughts:

Scenic items - user needs to decide which route to add them to, may be more than one route.

Road vehicles - ditto, plus add them to the car spawner

I would be happy to help as a beta tester - if it will work with my mixed up systems, it should work for anyone :lol:

I have been considering tidying up my stuff anyway, making up wagon packs to replace all the individual models, but then your activity usage checker will have to search through all the .wag and .eng files (and folder names) in the download to see if the download is needed for a given activity. This is already the case for some downloads though.

It sounds ambitious, but if you can do it, it will make a big difference for the users - Good luck.
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Post by johndibben »

Sounds great to me but I never know wht you're talking about anyway with all this PHP stuff :D

The basics appear fine and far better than that which we have at the moment. Most people I know are not pooter savvy and it will assist them greatly. It'll probably even rival the wonderful Trainz helper in it's user-friendlyness :wink:

In fact a change in the philoshophy form people must learn a certain amount to enjoy Internet services, to people need know very little, will benefit users and providers alike. I'm sure you realised that though :wink:

If there's problems with the technobabble stuff, it shot way past my ignorance of the subject and leaves me in blissful ignorance.

Hopefully it won't be too long in coming or it will probably qualify for the most anticipated website award :D
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Post by jjules »

I'm loving the sound of UKTS2!

All I can say is this (and I've said this before):

Bring it on!

Good luck with this project!
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Post by Deltic9000 »

Matt, this is well thought through - I like it! :D

I've got one query, however. At the moment, I've got MSTS running on a separate PC with no web access. Assuming I get my act together and finally get my PC's networked (and I can get my head around that minor issue!), will the new system be able to recognise or find my installation if it's not on the PC with web access?

As I said, I'm not clued up about networks yet, so apologies if this seems a bit clueless :o

Martin
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Post by LucaZone »

Can I just say one thing.

STOP
U MUST check out Steam by Valve Software. It does pretty much all of what u have listed above. Not the exact operations, but it has been designed to allow developers and publishers to do the things u want.
Valve Software wrote:Steam is a distributed file system and shared set of technology components that can be implemented into any software application. With Steam, developers are given integrated tools for direct-content publishing, flexible billing, ensured-version control, anti-cheating, anti-piracy, and more.
Two key features to Steam -
EASY AND FAST ACCESS TO GAMES
After installing Steam, you'll have instant access to Valve's full library of games. And when you choose one to play, you don't have to wait for the whole thing to download -- you can start playing in a matter of minutes.
AUTOMATIC UPDATES
Say goodbye to game patches forever--they're a thing of the past. Steam will keep all of its games up-to-date for as long as you want to keep playing them. No more hunting for download sites just to get up and running!


At the moment its only operating on their own network and games, but they have developed it for distribution to other companies and for them to use. Even if its not what ur after, it still might be worth talking to them, as its extremely what UKT and Steam want to do.


For business inquiries:
biz@steampowered.com
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Post by class40 »

Matt, that sounds wonderful - I like the idea of intergrated downloads.

Tony.
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Post by NeutronIC »

Valve Steam System
(ironic that it has that name really)
In principle yes, but I am fed up with depending on third party products, doing it all myself is a lot harder but if things go wrong at least I know the code and I can get it fixed and/or improved. I get the impression Steam has the same kinds of overall philosophy but the exact means of how its achieved are different to what i want to do, meaning it wouldn't actually be of as much use as you might first think. I also don't see paying for something that I'd rather develop myself anyway :)
Will the new system be able to recognise or find my installation if it's not on the PC with web access?
My aim would be that you can have it run in disconnected mode whereby it either has no access to the Internet, or no access to the MSTS installation - so you can browse and download and it just gets a bunch of ZIP files in a directory. You can then move those zip's to your MSTS machine and run its own copy of the client, it detects the ZIP's and installs them all for you, you can then copy the 'database' to the online machine so it then has an up to date list of what you have installed, and perhaps any complaints that the msts machine has about missing files can move in that 'batch' manner as well.
Hopefully it won't be too long in coming or it will probably qualify for the most anticipated website award
I think UKTS 2 has already been awarded a record number of 'vapourware' awards, almost as many as Half life 2. But since the source for UKTS 2 doesn't exist yet, it can't get leaked on to the Internet :)
I have been considering tidying up my stuff anyway, making up wagon packs to replace all the individual models, but then your activity usage checker will have to search through all the .wag and .eng files (and folder names) in the download to see if the download is needed for a given activity. This is already the case for some downloads though.
If you want to make wagon packs go right ahead, the descriptor contained in a ZIP file will list all the wagons and engines that are in that zip file and it'll all get registered on the database anyway (indeed the current system has this in the form of the 'wagon id' search, you can type in the wagon id that an activity complains is missing and it will look for it - so if 3 wagons are in one zip, it knows that even now, although the process to examine all zip's hasn't been run in a long time so it's very much out of date unfortunately). But yes, please do feel free to make packs up, the only downer is that people would need to download a big(ger) file rather than small ones - but then most activity authors would be encouraged to use a wider variety of stock in their activities if it was all in one pack anyway so I don't see it as a bad thing in the slightest :)

Matt.
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Post by LucaZone »

Fair, i thought that might be the case. Maybe u could label urs Diesel? or Electric? :P

Might still be worth contacting them for advice. Their system is designed to cater for millions world wide so they could still offer advice :)
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