Brake parameters for unfitted wagons

welshmilla · Post by **welshmilla** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:39 pm

What is the correct way to set up the brake parameters for unfitted wagons?

Is it:

BrakeEquipmentType( "Handbrake" )
BrakeSystemType( "Vacuum_single_pipe" )

or:

BrakeEquipmentType( "Handbrake" )
BrakeSystemType( "Vacuum_piped" )

If you leave out the BrakeSystemType parameter, it seems to default to Air Single Pipe.

1crick14a · Post by **1crick14a** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 7:44 am

This here below is the set up on loose coupled wagons I use for
that type of train they bounce about like the real thing.

Take no notice of the blue air brake factor it means nowt when
using vacuum or air systems.

Hope this helps some...........Regards, Rick

SIMISA@@@@@@@@@@JINX0D0t______

Wagon ( BRmineral01_coal1
Id ( ? )
Type ( Freight )
WagonShape ( BRmineral01.s )
Size ( 2.6m 2.7m 5.8m )
CentreOfGravity ( 0m 1.1m 0m )
Mass ( 21t )
InertiaTensor ( Box (2.6m 2.7m 5.8m) )
Coupling (
Type ( chain )
Spring (
Stiffness ( 1e1N/m 1e6N/m )
Damping ( 1e7N/m/s 1e7N/m/s)
Break ( 3.2e6N 3.2e6N )
r0 ( 0m 0.078m )
)
)
FreightAnim ( ..\\common.Loads\\RCH_open\\RCHcoal1.S 0.0 3.0 0 )

BrakeEquipmentType( "Handbrake" )
MaxBrakeForce( 0N )
MaxHandbrakeForce( 30000N )
NumberOfHandbrakeLeverSteps( 10 )

Adheasion ( 0.2 0.4 2 0 )
DerailRailHeight ( 4cm )
DerailRailForce ( 50kN )
DerailBufferForce ( 100kN )
WheelRadius ( 0.4875m )
NumWheels ( 4 )
Friction (
528N/m/s 0 6.0mph 3.089N/m/s 1.795
5.1N/rad/s 1 -1rad/s 0 1
)

Sound ("GenPassWagSteam.sms")
)

jbilton · Post by **jbilton** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:08 am

Hi
I'll just add that don't forget to NOT run these unfitted wagons with any fitted wagons...as you'll not be able to lift the brakes.
This is why they are often described as Vacuum (through) piped.

)
BrakeEquipmentType( "Handbrake, vacuum_brake" )
BrakeSystemType( "Vacuum_piped" )
MaxBrakeForce( 0N )
MaxHandbrakeForce( 10000N )
NumberOfHandbrakeLeverSteps( 100 )

This also gets round the msts front coupling/vacuum brake/recoupling bug.

Cheers
Jon

supergoods · Post by **supergoods** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 10:58 am

jbilton wrote:Hi
I'll just add that don't forget to NOT run these unfitted wagons with any fitted wagons...as you'll not be able to lift the brakes.
This is why they are often described as Vacuum (through) piped.

)
BrakeEquipmentType( "Handbrake, vacuum_brake" )
BrakeSystemType( "Vacuum_piped" )
MaxBrakeForce( 0N )
MaxHandbrakeForce( 10000N )
NumberOfHandbrakeLeverSteps( 100 )

This also gets round the msts front coupling/vacuum brake/recoupling bug.

Cheers
Jon

I concur with John on using vacuum piped, this also has the benefit of getting a working brake in the van which in the prototype would have been hand operated by the guard.

I have a set up with a train of minerals which I will post later when I get back from another day dealing with the damage done by Katrina and guessing where Ophelia is going to go.

ianmacmillan · Post by **ianmacmillan** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:15 pm

I set up my wagons as vacuum piped

The line....

MaxBrakeForce( 0N )

is not realy needed but I leave it in so that I can change it back to fitted if I repaint it.

saddletank · Post by **saddletank** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:55 pm

In addition to the through piped 'cludge' (which we must use otherwise MSTS treats them as air-braked...) I also set all my brakeforce settings in kN to 150% of the vehicles mass in tons, so a 10ton wagon has a 15kN handbrake force. I have found that this will let you stop, pin down some wagon brakes at the top of a gradient and proceed downhill running the train on its braked wagons. For additional braking the guard can apply and let off his van brake as required.

1crick14a · Post by **1crick14a** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:59 pm

"Vacuum_piped" - The vehicle has no powered brakes.
It only passes on the train pipe pressure for vacuum brakes.

Above is what the tech doc's say.

Mineral and other wagons only had a handbrake they did not
pass on any vacuum system braking to any other wagon, some
wagons were fitted with a through pipe which did pass on brake
power.

I understand what Ian is saying we have discussed this afore via
email.

My thoughts on working a loose coupled train is that to use the
brake van brakes ( key F9 ) should be used.

Regards, Rick

supergoods · Post by **supergoods** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:05 am

This is the upload containing the basic wagon BR_Diag_115_L

The file BR_Diag_115_L.wag

SIMISA@@@@@@@@@@JINX0D0t______

Wagon ( BR_Diag_115_L
Id ( ? )
Type ( Freight )
comment( BR 24.5 Ton Mineral Wagon unfitted to Diagram No 1/115. 2,150 built 1953-56. Loaded)
WagonShape ( BR_Diag_115_L.s )
Size ( 2.64m 2.76m 7.71m )
CentreOfGravity ( 0m 1.6m 0m )
Mass ( 31.78t )
InertiaTensor ( Box (2.64m 2.76m 7.21m) )
Coupling (
Type ( Chain )
Spring (
Stiffness ( 1e1N/m 2e6N/m )
Damping ( 1e6N/m/s 1e6N/m/s )
Break ( 3.2e7N 3.2e7N )
r0 ( 10cm 15cm )
)
Velocity ( 0.1m/s )
)
Coupling (
Type ( Chain )
Spring (
Stiffness ( 1e1N/m 2e6N/m )
Damping ( 1e6N/m/s 1e6N/m/s )
Break ( 3.2e7N 3.2e7N )
r0 ( 15cm 10cm )
)
Velocity ( -0.1m/s )
)
Buffers (
Spring (
Stiffness ( 5.6e6N/m 5.6e6N/m )
Damping ( 1.1e6N/m/s 1.1e6N/m/s )
r0 ( 0m 1e9 )
)
Centre ( 1.5 )
Radius ( 1 )
Angle ( 2.5 )
)
BrakeEquipmentType( "Handbrake, vacuum_brake" )
BrakeSystemType ( "Vacuum_piped" )
MaxBrakeForce ( 0N )
MaxHandbrakeForce( 31780N )
NumberOfHandbrakeLeverSteps( 100 )

Adheasion ( 0.2 0.4 2 0 )
DerailRailHeight ( 4cm )
DerailRailForce ( 85.806kN )
DerailBufferForce ( 90.89kN )
WheelRadius ( 0.476m )
NumWheels ( 1 )
Friction (
469.4N/m/s -0.11 5mph 2.787N/m/s 1.744
5.1N/rad/s 1 -1rad/s 0 1
)

Sound ("..\\..\\common.sound\\unfittedwagon\\unfittedwagon.sms" )
)

The File BR_Diag_115_L.sd

SIMISA@@@@@@@@@@JINX0t1t______
Shape ( BR_Diag_115_L.s
ESD_Detail_Level ( 0 )
ESD_Alternative_Texture ( 0 )
ESD_Bounding_Box ( -1.29 0.9 -3.605 1.29 2.65 3.605 )
)

All this runs with a standard BR 20T brake and Terry Thorntons 8F with the brake configurations in the .eng file:

Wag Part

BrakeEquipmentType( "Triple_valve, Vacuum_single_pipe, Auxilary_reservoir, Emergency_brake_reservoir" )
BrakeSystemType( "Vacuum_single_pipe" )
MaxBrakeForce( 57.79kN )
EmergencyBrakeResMaxPressure ( 110 )
TripleValveRatio ( 2.5 )
MaxReleaseRate ( 0.4 )
MaxApplicationRate ( 20 )
MaxAuxilaryChargingRate ( 20 )
EmergencyResCapacity ( 10 )
EmergencyResChargingRate ( 25 )
BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce ( 21 )

MaxBrakeForce ( 75.6kN )
MaxHandbrakeForce( 0kN )
NumberOfHandbrakeLeverSteps( 100 )

MaxReleaseRate ( 2 )
MaxApplicationRate ( 5 )
MaxAuxilaryChargingRate ( 15 )
BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce ( 21 )

Engine Part:

EngineBrakesControllerMinPressureReduction( 6 )
EngineBrakesControllerHasProportionalBrake( 1 )
EngineBrakesProportionalBrakeLag( 0.9 )
EngineBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate( 20 )
EngineBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate( 2 )
EngineBrakesControllerEmergencyApplicationRate( 50 )
EngineBrakesControllerMinSystemPressure( 0 )
EngineBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure( 21 )
EngineBrakesControllerFullServicePressureDrop( 26 )

BrakesEngineBrakeType( "Independent,Vacuum_single_pipe" )
BrakesTrainBrakeType( "Vacuum_single_pipe" )
BrakesEngineControllers( "Independent,Hand,Train" )

EngineBrakesControllerDirectControlExponent( 1 )

VacuumBrakesSmallEjectorPowerRating( 3 )
VacuumBrakesMinBoilerPressureMaxVacuum( 110 )
VacuumBrakesSmallEjectorUsageRate( 310 )
VacuumBrakesLargeEjectorUsageRate( 5040 )
VacuumBrakesHasVacuumPump( 0 )

TrainBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate( 0.4 )
TrainBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate( 20 )
TrainBrakesControllerMinSystemPressure( 0 )
TrainBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure( 21 )

EngineBrakesControllerHasProportionalBrake( 1 )
EngineBrakesProportionalBrakeLag( 0.9 )

Controllers Part:

Brake_Train ( 0 0.99 0.0275 0.65
NumNotches ( 3
Notch ( 0 1 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart )
Notch ( 0.01 1 TrainBrakesControllerRunningStart )
Notch ( 0.2 1 TrainBrakesControllerApplyStart )
)
)

Brake_Engine ( 0 0.99 0.0125 0
NumNotches( 2
Notch(0 0 Dummy )
Notch(0.99 0 Dummy )
)
)

Brake_Hand ( 0 1 0.0125 0
NumNotches ( 0 )
)

The end result is a Vacuum Braked engine with a steam (Independent) brake and a controllable vacuum brake in the van.

I claim no credit for the independent brake which was suggested by Rick.

I think the F9 method of operating the van brake is very good for shorter trains, but can be a bit of trouble on long main line trains.

1crick14a · Post by **1crick14a** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:17 am

Now I see why you set them up like that Ian the Steam brake your using
that as your main brake and the Vacuum as the guards van when needed
which does not matter as the brake is already set on the engine.

May not be prototypical but yes it will eliminate the use of the F9 key.

Wonder if Kuju ever knew there were more than one type of brake on
UK steam, wonder if they ever knew there were some engines only
fitted with a steam brake, is there a cab modeler who can create this
in a cab like the US Steamers have.

Regards, Rick

supergoods · Post by **supergoods** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:18 am

The whole thing works fairly well and I have done the same thing for the Australian New South Wales unfitted coal trains, except that here it was easier because the brakes are air which has a built in independent brake.

The only thing I have not been able to do succesfully was to get the vacuum to apply only on the van and not on the loco which is sometimes useful keeping the train stretched.

One other thing I am doing is to put all the braking force of the engine and tender on the engine and pipe the tender only. This does not make any difference when the vacuum brake is applied, but allows the simulation of the fireman screwing on the hand brake on the tender to assist with braking when using the steam brake.

1crick14a · Post by **1crick14a** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:45 am

Oh to feel the snatch as you went through a dip eh Ian or to
whistle for the guards help, to leap off the engine with the coal
pick/hammer to pin some wagon brakes down, the joy of loose
coupled workings to it's full..........maybe next time eh we can
hope anyway........we shall see...........Regards, Rick

jimmyladd · Post by **jimmyladd** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:17 pm

Hey Rick, you could attach a great big solanoid to your computer chair and set it up so when the couplings snap tight, it jolts your chair and nearly throws you out!

I've never had the joy of unfitted freight...the only ones I drove in Poland were fully fitted air brakes..spoils the fun!

Jim

supergoods · Post by **supergoods** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:32 pm

As this is a "G" rated simulator, we can't have the guard's comments when an enthusiastic driver catapults him into a loving embrace with his hot stove.

DarwinS · Post by **DarwinS** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:43 pm

I'll just add that don't forget to NOT run these unfitted wagons with any fitted wagons...as you'll not be able to lift the brakes.
This is why they are often described as Vacuum (through) piped.

What about FF1 where the front half (or more) of the wagons were fitted, FF2 where the front one third were fitted (but less than half), or Maltese Cross Freights where there were four fitted wagons at the head of the train?

I would assume that with any MSTS version of unfitted wagons, (piped or not) that fitted wagons at the head of the train, joined to the engine, would still work. Am I wrong?

1crick14a · Post by **1crick14a** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:56 pm

Jim the snatch only ever caught you once mate way to learn going
Arse over tit.

Ian were only ever in one once or twice that were enough fer me with a good bloke on the front as well.

Happy days..........Rick