Banking Duties

[Sly401]

Hi Guys


Ok 3 weeks into MSTS and I figure I'll try and have a stab at creating an activity... nothing simple mind

Thought I would re-create a movement I used to see at Rufford colliery a looooonnng time ago..

Basically I have a loaded AI 8F coal train waiting in the colliery departure loop (using Bretby on Burton Derby route) and a player controlled 8F empties arrives tender first.

The player then stops in the Arrival loop uncouples and then goes to the rear of the loaded coal train.

After right of way established and an exchange of whistles the player loco banks the AI train up the incline.

Player 8f then drops off at the summit, and returns to the colliery arrival loop.

It then pulls the brake van off the empties, both stabling in the engine siding while the Colliery loco takes the empties away in two sections and assembles a loaded train ready for departure by the player controlled engine.

needless to say I haven't got it working and nor have I seen any activity that tries such things..

First thing I found is don't try and bank over facing points as they change automatically as the train is half way over them !!!

Then I found that the banking loco "couples" to the train... can I disable the front coupling? ( from what i read so far thats the exact opposite of most people want lol)

Is shunting even possible for AI loco's?... I haven't been able to figure out coupling / uncoupling in the path yet


I re-alise that what I am trying to achieve is probably not possible but at least it has pushed the learning curve for me as regards that wonderful AE


Is it possible?


Thnx Sly

[DarwinS]

MSTS logic says it is (almost) impossible for an AI banking engine or pilot to couple up to a player loco...

But if the player engine is the banker, or pilot, that is a different matter. I hope you can work out a way to do it, and look forward to seeing the result - nice idea with lots of applications (at least for steam).

I don't think coupling will be a problem, as MSTS lets you uncouple from a moving train. One problem is whether the AI engine pulls the train after you uncouple, or whether it behaves like an unpowered consist... better make sure it has a good hill to roll down on the other side!

[Stone220]

MSTS can be a bit funny when it comes to things like Banking, Shunting etc. It shouldn't really be a problem if the player loco is the one doing the coupling, as AI locos can not shunt, nor can they pick up or drop off stock is because picking up/dropping off stock is done in the activity by using the F9 key and double clicking on the coupling you wish to disconnect.
It may be possible for them to pick up stock as long as the path is set up correctly but it is not somthing I have ever tried and I don't know how MSTS will react.
The player loco can certainly remove stock from an AI Consist but an AI Loco can not remove stock from a player train.

Hope this Helps.

[Sly401]

Thnx for the input guys

So if AI can couple (automatically) but not uncouple.. I see 2 possible workarounds..

1). Make the AI shunter propell all wagons, this would mean disabling the coupler(s) on the shunting loco....
I suppose I could change coupling type in con builder, however the banking loco would need just the front coupler "disabling" any ideas?

2). I believe an AI consist "spawns" at the time set in the AE.. can or does it disappear after its movement is completed?

My thinking behind this is.. the AI shunter draws a rake of wagons into position, then disappears, to be replaced a split second later by the shunter and a seperate rake of wagons ie-uncoupled..

ie AI shunting activities would be a series of seperate paths

Does computer performance effect AI paths?
Are paths repeatably accurate if kept very short?

Thnx again for your input

Sly

[Stone220]

1) The problem with disabling the couplers is that when you make the consist you will probaly get an 'incompatiable coupler types' message in AE. The disaprearing and reappearing is a good ideabut you would probably need to to have the stock and the shunter as seperate comsists positioned very close to each other. This will be quite a hard activity to write, it is one that even the most experienced activity writers would have trouble with. But I wish you all the best and hope that you come up with a way to make it.

[Sly401]

thnx Colin

I presume then that stock does then disappear at the end of its path.. a good start

Wonder if its posible to modify coupler type (each end) in the loco model or .eng file maybe I should ask in Rolling stock forum


Yep appreciate that this is not a simple activity but there's nothing like a challenge to push the learning curve

Thnx Sly

[MartinH]

A few of us did a lot of work on this a few years ago and it isn't possible if you want to bank in the conventional way (without coupling). For one thing, if you have any signals, they will turn to red before the banker reaches them. Even if you don't, the AI train is unlikely to move if you have a player path that runs on top of the AI path. It will essentially "give way" to the player service. This will mean that you will be pushing a dead loco + train up the hill. Then there's the small matter of what happens to the AI train once you get to the top of the hill. As soon as you stop, it will stop too, unless you give it a really good push, and even then, it will eventually stop. Even if you couple to the train, the AI train will lose all power as soon as you uncouple and, if you are still on a hill when this happens, it will roll back down the hill.



Martin

[Sly401]

Thnx Martin,
I knew someone must have tried this before, I am still gonna play around a bit to further my knowledge so apologies if my questions are old hat...

Thinking out loud..
I don't mind if the Banker has to push a dead loco+ train up the hill after the Banker buffers up to the train.....need some testing on a downgrade to see how far the now unpowered train will roll after the banker drops off..

Q. Can we alter the amount of roll by say editing rolling resistance for the loco?

Q. Can I alter the couplings on a tender loco to an incompatable type but leave the tender as original?

My thinking is I could bank up the hill drop off and let the AI train roll to its path endpoint and disappear ( possibly being replaced by a new consist to continue its journey )

Thnx Sly

[MartinH]

Yes and yes, but I'm not sure how well you'll be able to push the other train without coupling (make sure the brake force is low on the wagons and AI loco, as the brakes won't release without coupling).

I take it that there aren't any signals on the line.

If you have no signals, then you could effectively follow the AI train up the hill and simply allow it to continue when you reach the top. However:
1. You'll need to find a way of holding the AI train until you've buffered up (I've done this in the past by having another AI train perform a conflicting move).
2. I fear that the AI train that you are attempting to push will refuse to budge with you behind it.

Good luck.

Martin

[Bigant]

Hi Sly

You could drop the AI train in the sidings b4 you join the mainline and run back to do some shunting. Any AI traffic would be restricted within the Bretby colliery as there are no signals however you can make AI trains
stop and remain visible by putting a reverse point near the buffers or a double reverse point (doesnt always work though)
If you want a challenge try the hill from Worthington towards Ashby
you could start at Cloud Hill lime works, (tried a garratt up there with 30 loaded and managed 3 mph at the top) and finish in the Newbold colliery.

Cheers
Don

[Sly401]

Hi Martin , Don


Thanx for the replies...

Martin:-
there are no signals on the part of the route I wish to bank up, there are however facing points so I will simply use the arrival loop for departure's and vica versa.

I couldn't understand why my AI train would not wait at the "wait point" I had placed in its path until I bufffered up.. Is it that the AI is trying to move out of my way? and therefore ignoring its wait instruction?

I have successfully buffered up to a moving train (it then coupled) and propelled it over the "hump"
seems that you think that if couplings are of different types the brakes will be applied on the AI train making it impossible to propell over the hill... but as you suggest if the AI consist was a custom example we could set the brakeforce low or nil.. this would also help with the "roll away"

This raises the issue that if I were to be successfull I would have to ask permission of the authors of the original rolling stock before I could distrib a activity plus custom stock package..

Don
First of all thanx for the great routes... great job

Totally new to MSTS but tryin to utilise the "outside the box " type of thinking I have been using for years in various flight sims.... will have a look at Cloud hill Quarry... I Still run out of there every day except I use trucks... guess that makes me about even with a baby seal killer eh! lol

Anyone ever tried the complete the activity, disappear and immediatley respawn method of AI shunting?

Looks like I got a lot of testing to get through this weekend

As I said earlier in the thread, this is an exercise to further my understanding of MSTS so thanx all.. and you never know i might even finish up with something workable

Sly

[choccy]

Alas, waiting points do not work. If you enter a value in the box it always reverts to '0'. The only way waiting points are of any use is to put a whole series in line as close to each other as possible, because each waiting point makes a consist stop by a second or so! It's one of the many programme bugs in TrainSim and quite incredibly was never fixed.

A double reverse point, where the two markers are close to each other will cause an AI train to halt, but it will stop for good.

Mark

[Sly401]

Thnx Mark

Thought it was me when I couldn't get AI to wait...

Did I read somewhere about using an invisible engine to block paths? or is it just me ?

All this info flooding in might well have twisted my memory lol

thnx again Sly

[ianmacmillan]

Use my invisiwag to block the path.

Invisible Wagon [21230 bytes] - Invisiwag.zip File ID: 7920 Date: 04 Feb 2012 - 1893 Downloads

If you want it to move, Use any suitable .eng file but refer it to the invisiwag .s and .sd files.
Change the Size, CentreOfGravity, Centre and InertiaTensor lines to the invisiwag values.

Use Route Riter to make it AI.


Make sure you rename it to avoid confusion.

A good slow mover for the .eng file is...

Traction units for the 19th Century coal wagons - V2.0 [861565 bytes] - Horse.zip File ID: 5848 Date: 01 Jun 2003 - 793 Downloads

[BobLatimer]

Thought I would resurect this thread to report on something amazing. Well, it amazed me anyway!

I've just been testing an activity by a Canadian activity writer for Rogers Pass (a Western Canadian route by Maple Leaf Tracks). In the activity you first assemble a train of 4 locos, about 110 coal gondolas, 3 locos and another 110 gondolas. (The train is over 2 miles long!) It needs a bit of help to get up a particularly steep part of the line through the Rockies. Pop-ups tell you where to stop the tail end of your train and another six locos come out of a wye and couple to the back end. They then help you up the hill and you drop them off once you're past the steepest part. Haven't quite figured out how it's done yet but it does work.

Anybody else managed something like this?