Class 506 from Manchester to Hadfield and back

[coolhand101]

Hi
I'm currently making an Activity for the woodhead route using the class 506 EMU.
My understanding was these units never went further than Hadfield ? so the trip will be from Manchester to Hadfield and return.
Once at Glossop, the reverse point is tripped and a change ends is required for the journey to Hadfield. Once at Hadfield, the reverse point is tripped for the journey back to Manchester. It should be a 90 minute activity.
All runs well in A.E, from start to finished, but in MSTS, the reverse point at Hadfield will not trip, and the activity cannot be completed.
Is this a known problem for the above setup?

Thanks

[NiallGray]

Where are your reverse points? Inside the platform markers or outside?

I haven't done an act like that in years but I think I put the reverse points in a tiny gap between end of platform marker and end of the track, meaning you had to pull right up to the buffers before the reverse point would trip.

Is that what you did?

[stephenrwells]

Hi,

Following from what Niall said, remember that not only does the reverse point have to be far enough back from the buffers and/or headshunt points ( if present ) but the complete train must be after the last set of points. I have found that that sometimes what works in the AE doesn't work when running the activity and vice versa. Often the only solution is a lot of tedious trial and error and you get the required result.

Hope this helps and good luck,

Stephen

[coolhand101]

Where are your reverse points? Inside the platform markers or outside?

I haven't done an act like that in years but I think I put the reverse points in a tiny gap between end of platform marker and end of the track, meaning you had to pull right up to the buffers before the reverse point would trip.

Is that what you did?

Hi,

Following from what Niall said, remember that not only does the reverse point have to be far enough back from the buffers and/or headshunt points ( if present ) but the complete train must be after the last set of points. I have found that that sometimes what works in the AE doesn't work when running the activity and vice versa. Often the only solution is a lot of tedious trial and error and you get the required result.

Hope this helps and good luck,

Stephen

Thats what i did at Glossop and works 100%. But Hadfield has no buffers, only a signal. The signal is at red when the RP on the end platform marker is reached. When i move forward past the RP position, the signal clears to one yellow but the RP cannot be tripped and i am "off path".

However, when i move the RP at Hadfield from the end platform marker to the first platform marker, the signal is already showing one yellow as i enter Hadfield station and the RP is tripped. Success, but the station stop at Hadfield is not be recognized in the timetable. Not really a problem as a "location event" message can give the time to depart Hadfield station.

Im trying to find the cause of why the RP only works at the first platform marker and not the end platform marker.
Could be the signal being near the RP at the end platform marker?

Thanks

[stephenrwells]

Hi,

As you've guessed the platform marker is too close to the signal to allow the reverse point to be triggered. Sometimes having the reverse point part way down the platform will allow a successful reverse and station stop.

Regards,

Stephen

[coolhand101]

Hi,

As you've guessed the platform marker is too close to the signal to allow the reverse point to be triggered. Sometimes having the reverse point part way down the platform will allow a successful reverse and station stop.

Regards,

Stephen

Okay, i will test this by moving the signal in RE further from the station. If successful, maybe the author of woodhead can update this signal. It shouldn't interfere with any other activity.

Thanks

[stephenrwells]

Hi,

Moving the signal is fine if the activity is for your use only but you intend to upload it for others to enjoy then you will have to leave it where it is as it only affects your route copy.

Regards,

Stephen

[coolhand101]

Hi,

Moving the signal is fine if the activity is for your use only but you intend to upload it for others to enjoy then you will have to leave it where it is as it only affects your route copy.

Regards,

Stephen

Hence :-

If successful, maybe the author of woodhead can update this signal. It shouldn't interfere with any other activity.

It wasn't successful. It had nothing to do with the signal in question. I think i now know why it happens. Off to test this theory!

Thanks

[coolhand101]

Very intresting.
I move the signal back, same result. Even further back, same result and even removed it to another line, and the problem still remains.
That rules the placing of the signal out.
I have finally worked out why the reverse point won't trip - the rear motor coach. The front motor coach from Manchester, becomes the rear motor coach after leaving Glossop. When entering the platform at hadfield, the rear motor coach needs to be very near the end platform marker, as the front motor coach trips the RP. I had to move the end platform marker halfway back down the platform and the RP far enough for this to work and have a working timetable at Hadfield.
This is only a Multiple Unit problem. A loco running by itself never has this problem because the consist is very small.
Hope this makes sense!

Thanks

[a214sli]

Now you all know why I didn't upload any activities which involved Manchester-Hadfield and back, I'm sure I tried this at some point...

The signal is c.40m away from the platform end and was placed with reference to the many photos taken of this key location.

Tim Mitchell.

[NiallGray]

Coolhand101,

Just a suggestion but instead of Manchester - Hadfield and back, can you not do Hadfield - Manchester and back? That way you still get a round trip.

[coolhand101]

Hi
The "Manchester - Glossop - Hadfield - Manchester" activity still works without changing anything in RE. By moving the RP just past the first platform marker at Hadfield, the RP trips for the jounrney back to Manchester. You will lose the arrival and departure time at Hadfield, but a "location event" message will tell you what time to depart. The activity runs 100% with this setup.
I'm one for finding out things that should work but don't. I wanted that timetable at Hadfield to show, hence all the testing in RE and AE to find out that casue of the RP not tripping at Hadfield for the return journey to manchester.
Even though my first explantion seem to fit the problem, i just ran a 6-car 506 EMU on the activity with the working timetable at Hadfield.
Glossop reversal was 100% and i was expected the RP at Hadfield not to trip because of the longer consist, and to my surprise, it tripped.
It is something to do with those station markers, being at the right length for the RP to trip.

On another note.
Does anyone know why the 506s never went further than Hadfield?
I was guessing it was a pathing issue because of the class 76/77 express services. But i read on one woodhead site it was because of their low gearing and equipment overheating. But once pass 27 mph, theres no resistors in the circuit, so that reason doesn't seem correct. A class 506 should balance at 45 mph on 1 in 100 gradient, so no chance of overheating on them grades.
Also in the peak hours, the 506 ran as a 6-car. Does this mean all the stations towards Hadfield where greater than 6 coaches?

Thanks

[stephenrwells]

Hi,

I found he same result by having the reverse point halfway down the platform.

Interestingly, with the reverse point at the far station marker the station stop works perfectly with Open Rails.

Regards,

Stephen

[coolhand101]

Hi,

I found he same result by having the reverse point halfway down the platform.

Interestingly, with the reverse point at the far station marker the station stop works perfectly with Open Rails.

Regards,

Stephen

Thanks for testing that. At least we now know, this problem does not happen using OR.

[michaelhendle]

Hi
According to wikipedia the reaso they didn't go further than Hadfield was they had low gearing and on the section beyond Hadfield they would overheat and burn the traction motors out.
Mike