Locomotives/Rolling Stock

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mickoo
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Post by mickoo »

Decapod is using PovRay which l think can look at 3DC models and render them, not sure how.

Tim Booth loks to be using the same, as the bases ( slightly mirrored ) are the same but ha sopted for the classic renders black back ground, not sure what package the loco was built in, could be Gmax which means PovRay ( if thats what was used ) will render those models as well.

Me, well l'm using a really convoluted route, its basically Gmax scene with a camera and lights, using two omni lights to get a shadow and then one to lighten it make it less severe, ontop of that l'm using an Hemi light ot brighten the whole scene, though my two shots are a little darker than l would have liked.

l've made my own base and added the concrete section to basically add some depth and allow the front shadows to fall onto a null surface to show them off, other wise they become indistinct on the track texture.

l'm slowly building up a render scene where locos can be put in and then rendered, l'll be adding little items like junk and maybe some lights ( track inspection or overhead ) or more of a base, sort of a loco depot scene, that way night shots with pools of light can be rendered.

The problem in Gmax is that shadows and highlights arenot shown when viewed in normal Gmax, thats part of the crippling that Discreet did to bring it down to free level from its big brother 3DSM, so all light levles and such are guess work until you see the final render, it takes a lot of trial and error, belive me :).

Once the scene is set up you need to run a script called YaGmax, this basically compiles the scene, to capture this you need to run the Gmax listener sub routine, this stores the YaGmax scene in a buffer store, next you need a utility called XMLGrabit, this grabs trhe scene from the Gmax Listener and converts it to a XML format.

Finally you need Yafray, this converts XML scene renders into a visable *.tga image, the above takes about 30 seconds to compile, the Yafray takes longer to convert a XML to *.tga, for the 800x600 images above then Yafray takes a good 10 mins to do the conversion, for a 1200x800, it'd probably take 30mins.

It's mind numbingly slow and you only know it ifs ok when its finished, the Warship wasnt set up for rendering last night so setting the scene for that one shot, with lights and trial and error took 3-4 hrs work, now the scene is set it was a case of deleting the Warship, adding the Class 26, rotating the camera and grabbing the scene, took about 60mins to do that one.

You can speed it up by getting it to render a small 300x150 thumbnail to see if light levels and camera angles are good, takes anout 4 mins to render that in Yafray.

Most Yafray work is automatic, simply drag the XML file over the Yafray.exe file in file manager and it will spit out the final result, Yafray is basically a Dos based utility so you can run from dos to see where it failed, as the auto route just opens a Dos window whilst compiling, once completed it auto closes, failed or not !.

Very compilcated, very very time consuming but dammed god results IMHO, just need to find time to do more experimenting. One of the problems with this rendering method is that it will only render textures in *.tga format, so for all train sim models you need to alter all the textures from *.ace to *.tga, for plane sim you need to alter all *.bmp to *.tga, only then will YaGmax and Yafray compile correctly.

What l'm doing now is making all models with *.tga textures for the future, no one knows what the new sims formats will be but by opting for *.tga you retain good rendering and its easy to convert later, both TGATools and DXTBmp will convert from *.tga to the correct formats for each sim.

Gmax has a nice option to retain all mapping but just alter the file input type, by using the material navigator its a very easy task to simply change the texture input path from *.tga to *.ace or *.bmp with a few clicks, no need to remap or re texture, just click and swap, very handy for hedging your bets on future builds.

Hope that helps

Best regards

Michael
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timbooth
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Post by timbooth »

Mine are rendered in my old/trusty 3D CAD package (softcad 3D), which I use to prepare shapes for import into GMAX - its quick and easy for untextured shapes.
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smudge5609
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Post by smudge5609 »

Hi All,

Thanks for all your replies. I'm a 3D canvas user. I've download Povray, but not sure what to do with it yet. Will have to do some reading up on it!

Cheers, Chris
Chris Lindop
Light Rail :: Narrow Gauge :: Trams
refman
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Post by refman »

<IMG width="800" height="525" SRC="http://www.atomic-album.com/showPic.php ... .JPG">[img]
I`m trying to complete the IOM locos.
This is going to be No10 " C.H.WOOD[/img]
mickoo
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Post by mickoo »

Sorry, just couldnt resist, l know its an old model but the compilation was interesting, both YaGMax and Yafray failed initially, it forced me to look closer at the model and spot the errors....which could have also been causing the odd view 4 crash bug, interesting indeed and the information will be used for future builds and hopefully better game play models ?.

There are still some errors, theres now shadows off the handrails, front lamps, dome, snifter valve, whistle etc.

Ironically l prefer to view them like this than in game, there a bit like the old builders photos companies used to take to show there new locos

Image

Additionally, once you strip off the clumsy *.ace textures and mapping caused by the Kuju material editor the model underneath does actually scrub up pretty well, certainly a good basis for a future rework for new sims.

Best

Michael
mickoo
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Post by mickoo »

refman wrote:<IMG width="800" height="525" SRC="http://www.atomic-album.com/showPic.php ... .JPG">[img]
I`m trying to complete the IOM locos.
This is going to be No10 " C.H.WOOD[/img]
Thats pretty damm good, l like the rivits and lining and nice detail on the steps too.

Best

Michael
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RobertM
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Post by RobertM »

mickoo wrote:
Image


Michael
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but why are most of the models on here just plain white ones???

I know it must seem like a stupid question, but I've only literally just started to do reskins 8)

RobertM :D
Cheers, Robert :)
Fireman at the Lakeside & Haverthwaite Steam Railway.
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mickoo
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Post by mickoo »

There white or mid grey so that you can see any imperfections in the model.

When you build plastic or metal kits you quite often apply a grey primer spray coat, that will show all the blemishes, you can do the same with a virtual model.

If you look closely at Tim Booths tank engine you will see some polys in torsion on the back bunker sides, a sort of small ripple effect, if he had not rendered that in a neutral color then those little niggles would never be found. I have the same on the Class 26, up where the roof joins the front corner windscreen piller,the model is not perfectly smooth and that will show in the game badly as a distorted highlight, there is also a distortion on the front near the bottom where the door would be, you can see a sort of darker shadow on the model, thats polys in torsion ( twisted ), you can elminate many by carefully turning the edges within the poly to get it to flow smoothly, its probalby called something different in other packages but the art is to make all curves and angles as smooth as possible.

Here is a perfect example of torsion free poly model, mind it has a very high poly count and is no where near finished, but you can see how smooth the wings and fuselage is. What you see is the same poly count as the A3 and theres at least another 25,000 to finish it off to any decent standard required by todays buyers.

Image

It needs to be this smooth because flight sim has much better rendering game engine, any ripples or niggles will show up like a big blotch when your zooming around the sky. This model took 5 months to get this far and does not have one single blemish on it, it will probably take another two years to finish, if ever. I just added the tail stands to make it look better in the render :). Thats the biggest problem these days, the better models get, the longer they take to build.

MSTS is no where near as good so you can get away with an awful lot, however the next generation games will not be so forgiving and the only way to keep on top is to develope good basic modeling skills now, and so far theres some pretty good ones shown here....which is good for the future of train siming IMHO.

Another reason is that textured models almost triple the compilation time for a render and chances are the textures will not be in the same format as the finished model.

One final reason is that with no textures to distract the eye or cover the cracks so to speak, you only see the raw pure model, like all cakes, if the base is good then you have a chance to make a good model, if the base structure isnt then it could all fall into a soggy pile later.

The colors applied to my renders are simply material colors, there not painted on there just the color of the part when l made it or changed it later to give more contrast ( in the case of the plane model, to see the moving part joins and shapes better ), on the Class 26 l simply added a yellow color to the ploughs and red to the buffer beam, there is no texture applied so if you ran it in the game it would be white just like the rest, its a handy trick to give you a rough idea of how its going to look in the game.
I could have done the same with the A3 but didnt, it was an experiment to see what a high poly count model would look like, by simply changing the grey colors of the chassis and wheels to something slightly darker you could give it more 3D depth.

Best

Michael
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decapod
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Post by decapod »

Another thing that shows up blemishes (which will be in the new sims) is environment mapping.

For TSM users, there is a similar option in SView - go to the Edit/Textures menu option and un-tick the textures - this will show a simple white model, with no textures applied.

Unfortunately TSM is not that good at correct smoothing (it tends to smooth everything) so you get a lot of strange lighting effects.

smudge - just click on the snapshot button for 3D canvas once POVray is installed - then select the Raytrace option.

You may need to alter one small security option in POVray, but that's all you need to do to get a render.
DECAPOD
OOOOO
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davidaward
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Post by davidaward »

Reg, the new Manx Peacock is looking stunning!
Image
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richardpratt
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Post by richardpratt »

Completely forgot about this, please keep reminding me to upload this everyone!

http://richrailtrains.fotopic.net/c749746.html
Image
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RobertM
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Post by RobertM »

richardpratt wrote:please keep reminding me to upload this everyone!
Upload it!!!

RobertM :D
Cheers, Robert :)
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Second Valve simulation - https://www.facebook.com/secondvalve?ref=hl
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Damo
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Post by Damo »

There is something wrong near the window in the second shot.
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jimmyladd
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Post by jimmyladd »

mickoo wrote:There white or mid grey so that you can see any imperfections in the model.

When you build plastic or metal kits you quite often apply a grey primer spray coat, that will show all the blemishes, you can do the same with a virtual model.

If you look closely at Tim Booths tank engine you will see some polys in torsion on the back bunker sides, a sort of small ripple effect, if he had not rendered that in a neutral color then those little niggles would never be found. I have the same on the Class 26, up where the roof joins the front corner windscreen piller,the model is not perfectly smooth and that will show in the game badly as a distorted highlight, there is also a distortion on the front near the bottom where the door would be, you can see a sort of darker shadow on the model, thats polys in torsion ( twisted ), you can elminate many by carefully turning the edges within the poly to get it to flow smoothly, its probalby called something different in other packages but the art is to make all curves and angles as smooth as possible.

Here is a perfect example of torsion free poly model, mind it has a very high poly count and is no where near finished, but you can see how smooth the wings and fuselage is. What you see is the same poly count as the A3 and theres at least another 25,000 to finish it off to any decent standard required by todays buyers.

Image

It needs to be this smooth because flight sim has much better rendering game engine, any ripples or niggles will show up like a big blotch when your zooming around the sky. This model took 5 months to get this far and does not have one single blemish on it, it will probably take another two years to finish, if ever. I just added the tail stands to make it look better in the render :). Thats the biggest problem these days, the better models get, the longer they take to build.

MSTS is no where near as good so you can get away with an awful lot, however the next generation games will not be so forgiving and the only way to keep on top is to develope good basic modeling skills now, and so far theres some pretty good ones shown here....which is good for the future of train siming IMHO.

Another reason is that textured models almost triple the compilation time for a render and chances are the textures will not be in the same format as the finished model.

One final reason is that with no textures to distract the eye or cover the cracks so to speak, you only see the raw pure model, like all cakes, if the base is good then you have a chance to make a good model, if the base structure isnt then it could all fall into a soggy pile later.

The colors applied to my renders are simply material colors, there not painted on there just the color of the part when l made it or changed it later to give more contrast ( in the case of the plane model, to see the moving part joins and shapes better ), on the Class 26 l simply added a yellow color to the ploughs and red to the buffer beam, there is no texture applied so if you ran it in the game it would be white just like the rest, its a handy trick to give you a rough idea of how its going to look in the game.
I could have done the same with the A3 but didnt, it was an experiment to see what a high poly count model would look like, by simply changing the grey colors of the chassis and wheels to something slightly darker you could give it more 3D depth.

Best

Michael
Some of the things you have said in this post worry me somewhat...if the graphics engine of the new sims are up to the standard of the flight sim that you are building that plane for, is the time taken for modelers to build a good model going to be measured in lots of months or even years, instead of weeks? In which case particularly in the freeware world, would anybody commit that amount of time just to build a model? Lets face it, without the diversity of freeware models, nearly all the active members of UKTS would have dissapeared ages ago.
Cheers
Jim
Working to restore D8233, D5705 and D9531
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DarwinS
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Post by DarwinS »

Well I am hoping some (many?) of us will accept models of a lower standard, including models imported from MSTS I hope. Whilst I appreciate quality, I also want to have a good variety of models (hopefully mostly freeware).
I would like to build some of them bit not i fear to the above specifications.
Regards

Darwin
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