A new project for a team

The MSTS 1 Route Editor can be a beast to use, but it's capable of some amazing results, here you can talk with the wizards that are building some of the fantastic routes available and learn how to make your own.

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
djhedge
Well Established Forum Member
Posts: 898
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:53 pm
Location: Surrey

Post by djhedge »

paulz6 wrote: I think in law terms, digital reproduction is no different to physical reproduction.

Most courts are reasonable though, so I think if you give reasonable thought to what is "artistic impression" and "digital reproduction", and make the best attempt to resolve any arrising issues in a reasonable manner, than that would probably protect 'one' from the worst of scenarios.
digital and physical reproduction are very different in legal terms, the latter tends to carry smaller penalties

The courts are bound by statues, precedent and the like - therefore, mitigating factors such as those that you outlined have relatively little effect.
User avatar
lumpchase
Very Active Forum Member
Posts: 1800
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 12:40 am
Location: on his soapbox and losing!

Post by lumpchase »

Just because I give away an illigal copy of Microsofts product and do not make a profit, does that mean I have not broken any copyright laws in the duplication of the product in the first place???

Just because it's freeware, doesn't mean that I don't have to comply with copyright laws.

Railway company logo's are all copyright or trademark their respective owners. They allow their use here either because ...
[*]They see it as possitive advertising (Virgin do it for this reason - they even promote Flight Sim products with their name on)
[*]They are unaware that this site / genre exists (although I very much doubt it personally).

Any railway company could email Matt and insist that ANY file (model, route, images or otherwise) with their logo on are removed and Matt would have to comply with that. They wouldn't beause they really wouldn't like the bad publicity in next weeks News of the World (or even tomorrow's Sun) but you get the point. We must always remain 'friendly' with the TOC's even if we don't like them. They are, after all, the people we are simulating in the first place.

Tony
I may disagree with everything you say, but will defend unto death your right to say it - Voltaire

Its weird how you give up on something until you don't have the freedom to use it as you wish - Lloydy ;-)
User avatar
djhedge
Well Established Forum Member
Posts: 898
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:53 pm
Location: Surrey

Post by djhedge »

lumpchase wrote:Just because I give away an illigal copy of Microsofts product and do not make a profit, does that mean I have not broken any copyright laws in the duplication of the product in the first place???
Tony
But Microsofts product was not free in the first instance. Yes, certain copyright laws do apply, however where something is free there are a number which do not. As you stated, it is when people atart making profits however, that matters get really sticky :D!
User avatar
lumpchase
Very Active Forum Member
Posts: 1800
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 12:40 am
Location: on his soapbox and losing!

Post by lumpchase »

Ok lets put it in a completely free (based on the 'Free Beer' or 'TANSTAAFL' translation of free) perspective.

Mr X creates a model, he releases it on UKTS for free.
He allows Me to repaint it.
I release it on UKTS for free as well.

Does that give you the automatic right to repaint it and release it here as well?
What about to upload it to your website (irrespective or if you post credit to it or not)?
What about to put it on a CD to give away at a model exhibition?

It really shouldn't matter if it was free to you in the first place. Availability of it for free on the internet does not mean that it is in the public domain or that you can do what you want with it.

It is not a matter of proffit, its a matter of © Copyright.

Please note that this post is in no way an attempt to have a go at AtomIC Systems about the free CD's given away at the Roadshow. I know that the full permission of the Authors is obtained for all work included on the CD's.

Tony

[Edit: Corrected spelling mistakes]
Last edited by lumpchase on Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I may disagree with everything you say, but will defend unto death your right to say it - Voltaire

Its weird how you give up on something until you don't have the freedom to use it as you wish - Lloydy ;-)
User avatar
djhedge
Well Established Forum Member
Posts: 898
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:53 pm
Location: Surrey

Post by djhedge »

Yes - true. However the point I am making is that if you take the copyright spectrum, free at one end and profit at the other - the penalties increase towards to profitable area. Even if it is free, as I stated, certain copyright rules apply - however there a fewer and hence more leniant sentences.

I have never said that if its free all copyright rules can be adandonned - I am merely stating that free reproduction is an entirely different ball-game and therefore you cannot compare illegal microsoft products to this scenario. I believe it is the Copyright, Design and Patents Act 1988, if memory serves, that is the binding authority for this.
User avatar
lumpchase
Very Active Forum Member
Posts: 1800
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 12:40 am
Location: on his soapbox and losing!

Post by lumpchase »

((believes that djhedge searched the internet before posting ... but then so would I have done :-)))
Copyright, Design and Patents Act 1988 wrote:The owner of the copyright in a work of any description has the exclusive right to do the acts specified in Chapter II as the acts restricted by the copyright in a work of that description.
Chapter II - Paragraph 16.— wrote:
  1. The owner of the copyright in a work has, in accordance with the following provisions of this Chapter, the exclusive right to do the following acts in the United Kingdom—
    1. to copy the work (see section 17);
    2. to issue copies of the work to the public (see section 18);
    3. to perform, show or play the work in public (see section 19);
    4. to broadcast the work or include it in a cable programme service (see section 20);
    5. to make an adaptation of the work or do any of the above in relation to an adaptation (see section 21);
    and those acts are referred to in this Part as the "acts restricted by the copyright".
  2. Copyright in a work is infringed by a person who without the licence of the copyright owner does, or authorises another to do, any of the acts restricted by the copyright.
  3. References in this Part to the doing of an act restricted by the copyright in a work are to the doing of it—
    1. in relation to the work as a whole or any substantial part of it, and
    2. either directly or indirectly;
    and it is immaterial whether any intervening acts themselves infringe copyright.
  4. This Chapter has effect subject to—
    1. the provisions of Chapter III (acts permitted in relation to copyright works), and
    2. the provisions of Chapter VII (provisions with respect to copyright licensing).
Chapter 18 — Infringement by issue of copies to the public. wrote:
  1. The issue to the public of copies of the work is an act restricted by the copyright in every description of copyright work.
  2. References in this Part to the issue to the public of copies of a work are to the act of putting into circulation copies not previously put into circulation, in the United Kingdom or elsewhere, and not to—
    1. any subsequent distribution, sale, hiring or loan of those copies, or
    2. any subsequent importation of those copies into the United Kingdom;
except that in relation to sound recordings, films and computer programs the restricted act of issuing copies to the public includes any rental of copies to the public.
Although it could be defined that being on t'internet is in the public's hands. It is only available to members who are registered on this website (therefore not actually in the publics hands at all).
User avatar
djhedge
Well Established Forum Member
Posts: 898
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:53 pm
Location: Surrey

Post by djhedge »

I work for 35 civil/family/criminal specialist barristers - we deal with a few issues of copyright per month, I have therefore become fairly familiar with the Act.

I am not disputing the law, as I said in my previous comment - infringement, free or otherwise is in breach of copyright law in England and Wales.

What I do dispute is the differences in penalties that arise from such breaches.

You seem to claim that same penalties will be handed to the defendant regardless of whether the original was free or not. Acts are only guidelines for the judiciary to interpret (known as statutory interpretation) - what Acts do not cover is the range of other factors including circumstances, damage, mitigation and others

It is the role of the presiding judge(s) to go along with the law WHILST taking in to account these factors that are specific to a case. Judges give what is known as a "ratio decidendi" (the actual judgement) in accordance with an "obiter dicta" which are the reasons for their judgement - reasons which are specific to the case. Clearly someone reproducing Microsoft products for profit or otherwise would be given harsher penalties than someone graphically reproducing the free original as is the case herein.

I am not disputing the law, and in fact the cited Act has many other sections other than the single one you posted. The act is only a binding authority, which the judiciary interprets and concludes accordingly.

This whole discussion (which I think is good and healthy ;):D) was sparked because a forum memeber claimed that copyright should be sought for the most extreme things - which frankly, is not the case as Rich also pointed out.
User avatar
lumpchase
Very Active Forum Member
Posts: 1800
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 12:40 am
Location: on his soapbox and losing!

Post by lumpchase »

And on that I agree with you whole heartedly. The act does also have a lot more than the two small sections that I posted. These were the two that I found most relevent to the copying and using of anothers work.

I accept that the treatment and punishments may be different for something given away freely in the first place ('How can you say that it cost you that that person gave it away as you were doing tha same thing anyway')..

I hold my hands up that I am not a lawyer and I have no qualifications in this matter. I will also say that most of this can be argued till we are blue in the face and like many other topics in here ... go completely round the block and in the end forget what started it all.
DJ, I leave it to you to interpret in future :oops: :lol: :drinking:

Tony :-)
I may disagree with everything you say, but will defend unto death your right to say it - Voltaire

Its weird how you give up on something until you don't have the freedom to use it as you wish - Lloydy ;-)
User avatar
djhedge
Well Established Forum Member
Posts: 898
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:53 pm
Location: Surrey

Post by djhedge »

lumpchase wrote: I hold my hands up that I am not a lawyer and I have no qualifications in this matter. I will also say that most of this can be argued till we are blue in the face and like many other topics in here ... go completely round the block and in the end forget what started it all.
I know what you mean :D - at the end of my previous post I had to remind myself what triggered the issue - its so easy for subjects to esculate and go all over the place on here :)!

Regards

Josh
User avatar
lumpchase
Very Active Forum Member
Posts: 1800
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 12:40 am
Location: on his soapbox and losing!

Post by lumpchase »

Anyway, did I say Free Beer ;-)
I may disagree with everything you say, but will defend unto death your right to say it - Voltaire

Its weird how you give up on something until you don't have the freedom to use it as you wish - Lloydy ;-)
User avatar
buffy500
Mr DMU
Posts: 6794
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Getting on all the right people's nerves !
Contact:

Post by buffy500 »

The comment about copyright on a bus or a train design IS interesting though.
No one ever mentions it, only worrying about the TOC name on the side, but in theory, its just as valid a breach of copyright.
Image
User avatar
lumpchase
Very Active Forum Member
Posts: 1800
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 12:40 am
Location: on his soapbox and losing!

Post by lumpchase »

But we don't worry about that Dave, you the only one who breached that one :-) If I draw a window, its a window. I still maintain its YOUR shape file that causes it to look like a ElectroStar. :lol:
I may disagree with everything you say, but will defend unto death your right to say it - Voltaire

Its weird how you give up on something until you don't have the freedom to use it as you wish - Lloydy ;-)
User avatar
paulz6
Very Active Forum Member
Posts: 2255
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:22 pm
Location: Disused Railway Lineside Shack

Post by paulz6 »

Luckily, the situation is a lot more clear cut regarding patents, whilst we are free of software patents in the UK (funny how your simple bit of code looks and acts exactly like mine!) By law, the wheel cannot have been invented in two places (or more precisely one inventor would hold an exclusive right for a limited time period depending on who got to the patent office first).
I would think one would be safe from copyright laws where someone has been creative and used past creations as inspiration.
Creating a set of modern houses or old terraced houses based on real world design is going to get anyone in trouble. However, I wouldn't feel so easy modelling real world examples exactly.
Some railway modellers can be very precise, and I wouldn't blindly go forward without considering what may be copyrighted!
User avatar
trains2
Very Active Forum Member
Posts: 1509
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:22 pm
Location: Winchester
Contact:

Post by trains2 »

Been another month, would be interesting to hear what has happened/if any progress has been made.

Rich
Image
User avatar
buffy500
Mr DMU
Posts: 6794
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Getting on all the right people's nerves !
Contact:

Post by buffy500 »

trains2 wrote:Been another month, would be interesting to hear what has happened/if any progress has been made.

Wouldn't it just...
Image
Locked

Return to “[MSTS1] Route Building”