leaves ect

[broads2]

saw breakfast news (bbc)
the excuses the train operators came up with about leaves on the track
they were using it to cover all delays since yesterday and beyond , but with the next breath said most of the trees were in the south east
then there was poor old eurostar no power in France towed back to london
passengers left in lille for 12hours?? oh dear
a bit of strong wind or snow or rain all goes to pot

[Goingnorth]

The leaf problem has caused headaches for a long time. It’s not an excuse, it’s a real issue. Not helped by disc brakes and P1 wheel profiles.

No only can it caused ALL trains to slip to a stand, but SPADs is another very serious issue. In fact some years ago a 165 DMU crashed into the buffers at Slough because of leaf fall.

No only that, serious leaf fall fails to shunt track circuits, causing wrong-side signal failures. The only way around this is to treat certain trains as tamping machines and NOT rely on auto signals. So it effect huge sections of main line (say Tallington-Stock Summit, Syston-Loughborough, Didcot-Tilehurst etc) become one signal section, which massive disruption to timetables.

The wind has always caused problems with OHL, although the ECML (and other recent electrification schemes) are badly effected because the catenary was erected on the cheap. With supports much further apart.

Snow has always caused problems too.

Not only this winds and electric storms caused problems with the public power supply. The wind loading for pylons in this country is 90mph...anything much over that causes problems. It’s common for signal box power supplies to be switched to generators and batteries during these periods and you can use switching on the OHL to get around problems most of the time.

So what does the railway do to combat leaf fall?

1. Deploy sandite trains. These lay a layer of sand compound onto the rails to help grip.
2. Employ leaf scrubbing teams.
3. Cut down trees.
4. Fit trains with sanding gear.
5. Educate staff
6. Produce alternative operating plans.

You CAN design the infrastructure to be much more robust. However this costs much more money, something the railways have always lacked.

Don’t forget all transport services and other infrastructure is affected too.

[Kevo00]

The leaf problem is serious, but it does beg two questions - why does it only seem to exist in the South East, and has it always been a problem for the railways? The only answer to the first question I can think of is third rail, and the answer to the second I assume is err no, but I could be wrong.

And however did the old Southern region/NSE cope with the "hurricane" of 1987?

[Goingnorth]

The leaf problem is serious, but it does beg two questions - why does it only seem to exist in the South East, and has it always been a problem for the railways? The only answer to the first question I can think of is third rail, and the answer to the second I assume is err no, but I could be wrong.

And however did the old Southern region/NSE cope with the "hurricane" of 1987?

Yeah, the third rail is a big culprit. As an electrification system is pretty poor and suffers with ice, leaf fall is a poor conductor of electricity and is basically limits trains to 100 mph.

I think most of the problems exist in the SE because of the landscape. Places like Surrey, Oxfordshire, Sussex, Kent or very leafy. I think thre is problems everywhere, but that's the main reason.

I think it's always been a problem to an extent (although others might like to confim this). With steam locos with the clasp breaks, their weight, wheel profile is wasn't such a problem. Modern multiple units have a high power to weight ratio, A fine wheel profile, and disc brakes. So the . tends to collect on the wheels and cause problems. The steel wheel and rail is a very efficent (friction wise) user of energy. The problem is trains have a high weight and kinetic energy. So paradoxically, this causes probelms.

I took a trip from Edinbugh-Newcastle along the east coast main line last year and I could feel the 91 slipping quite a bit. Watch out for it, and you'll feel it. But remember the power for that 460 ton mass is transmitted through a very small area (about the size of a two pence piece for each wheel). So with 8 wheels the actual contact area is about the size of my foot! Remember road tyes bend to fit the road. Steel is very solid, so ACTUAL contact area is very small. Also this machine is 1/4 mile long with 500 people on board and is subjected to cross winds. So if the rail head is contaminated then is there any wonder it slips?

I also remember being on an HST in Cornwall years ago leaving Liskeard. It was dark, but the thing was slipping like hell. I peered out of the window only to see a massive array of sparks flying from the wheels!

[broads2]

sorry to going north if he thought i was having a go at the railway for the leaves his answer is correct
but it does not answer the statements the train operators put out then say they never said that
it has alot to do with the weight and type of wheels that are used
i used to travel in the 70s from Dartford to Charing Cross every day
there was know problem then with leaves
the train was the 07.35 avr 08.15
it was seldom late (except when the staff went on a go slow)
but now the train takes 10- 15 mins longer
from where i am now in Broadstairs it takes 2hours to 2 -10 where it used to take 1 hour 50 mins
the train may be better inside but no progress
we are told we could have a service sometime that may do it in 1 hour 30mins
i only wish
broads2(john)

[Goingnorth]

sorry to going north if he thought i was having a go at the railway for the leaves his answer is correct
but it does not answer the statements the train operators put out then say they never said that
it has alot to do with the weight and type of wheels that are used
i used to travel in the 70s from Dartford to Charing Cross every day
there was know problem then with leaves
the train was the 07.35 avr 08.15
it was seldom late (except when the staff went on a go slow)
but now the train takes 10- 15 mins longer
from where i am now in Broadstairs it takes 2hours to 2 -10 where it used to take 1 hour 50 mins
the train may be better inside but no progress
we are told we could have a service sometime that may do it in 1 hour 30mins
i only wish
broads2(john)

The train operators don't help themselves regarding information. I've explain the leafs on the line problem to many, they go away fully understanding most of the time. I'm afraid the railway is very weak on PR.

[broads2]

to right goingnorth
if you explain things properly people will try an understand
thanks for your help
broads2

[salopiangrowler]

the rerun of the bone breaker tour can think what they called it was cancelled at stafford (its last pickup) because Virgin and railtrack closed the stafford birmingham line. Railtrack said they would rerun the already reran tour on another date so it was a bad day for charter operators aswell.

[markw]

Don't forget too, Goingnorth, in the days of steam track gangs used to keep the undergrowth down to mown grass to stop spark induced lineside fires. Ironically, the amatuer conservationists who bemoan the loss of lineside trees that have grown up largely since the mid sixties, where they are cut down, are actually encouraging the destruction of even more valuable meadowland habitat which has disappeared from fields alongside the track but which grew for many miles along cuttings and embankments in the age of steam, and for which annual controlled burning or mowing was ideal!

[steve33108]

should see some of the slam door emu's i have been on this week, if anybody knows these places i mention they might also have experienced the trouble,
botley, monday morning, 8 cig, took 4 attempts to get away to hedge end after slipping, you could smell the motors cooking! then we slipped nearly all the way to hedge end, then it was ok until leaving winchester, we slipped away from there, and got a fair way to michledever before we got some decent grip.
then monday night, all hell erupted, no grip anywhere on the network. tuesday, near enough the same story, better grip in the evening though. then it has just been botley and winchester that we have slipped at, sometimes portchester is a problem, depends on the driver!
bring back steam!