St Pancras International

[duncharris]

I just thought I'd like to share some research into what's being done to St Pancras station; i.e. contract 105 for the CTRL.

Anyway, St Pancras has the largest single-span trainshed in the country but it's not long enough for Eurostars, so its being extended, but instead of complimenting the existing shed with a similar structure (which if you've never been to St Pancras is fantastic) they've decided to try and do the opposite and have a low boxlike thing stuck on the front.

Anyone got any thoughts on this architectural front?

anyway, some pictures;

<img src="http://www.costain.com/news/bpdec01/images\4e.gif">

More or less the existing view from within the trainshed, but with Eurostars present.

<img src="http://www.costain.com/news/bpdec01/images\4f.gif">

Is this an entrance half way down the platform? St Pancras trainshed can be seen to the left.

<img src="http://www.camden.gov.uk/working/kingsc ... _large.jpg">

A photo of a model

<img src=http://www.camden.gov.uk/working/kingsc ... ture_l.jpg>

The above picture shows the area around Kings Cross. Kings Cross station is the rectangle in the bottom left. The yellow circles are gas holders. St Pancras station as it stands now is the blue rectangle a bit along the Euston? road. The red area stuck on the front is the international extension. I think the blue lines represent the new connections from CTRL to the bottom right, the one slightly above that to the ECML, and the ones further up to the MML and WCML via the North London line. I think the orange lines represent Thameslink, and the funny shaped yellow thing the new St Pancras Thameslink station which is part of the CTRL work.

and links:

http://www.costain.com/news/bpdec01/contents.htm

http://www.camden.gov.uk/working/kingsc ... rashtm.htm

http://www.kingscrosslondon.com/newkc/CTRL.html

[southcoasttrains]

I think what they've done is a good idea as they aren't tampering with the original train shed, It's guarenteed to be a grade listed building, I thought they were building the Eurostar station in the space they cleared between Kings Cross and St Pancras.

[Kevo00]

Would be better to build a classic style train shed that compliments the old one I would have thought. Where are MML services going to fit in that, I thought the new proposals were going to be outwith the present station?

[LucaZone]

Having been round all the London Terminals in the past few weeks, taking vast pictures (as u may have seen in threads in the Screnshots section), i would have to say the arch span stations are far more attractive. Euston and Victoria just arent very pleasing to look at.

Saying that though, despite all the wonderful architecture at St. Pancras, it has to be the biggest disappointing station in London. Its got what 5 or 6 platforms, all of which are horribly uneven tarmac. Nothing around in the station itself, and probably at most 1 or 2 trains at any one time. Outside it looks wonderful, and inside it looks a disaster.

So maybe the overhaul of mixed modern and classical station construction will give it the facelift and attraction it so badly needs.

btw i take it the orange lines on the plan are the tube lines?

[duncharris]

Would be better to build a classic style train shed that compliments the old one I would have thought. Where are MML services going to fit in that, I thought the new proposals were going to be outwith the present station?

I think the new station will have 13 platforms. MML use 3 or 4 platforms on the west side so that's separate. Eurostar will use the middle 6 platforms and high speed commuter services to Kent will use 3-4 platforms on the east side. Though I'm not too sure why domestic Kent trains wont be in the middle so that cross platform transfers to MML services would be possible.

And I also think that it would have been better to build a more complimentary structure. The fact that it isn't is probably due more to economics than anything else. You are going to change the character anyhow, but a really huge trainshed would be very impressive to anyone coming here from the continent.

btw i take it the orange lines on the plan are the tube lines?

. I think they're Thameslink-see newly added caption above

[wookey]

yeah im none too impressed either, i like big trainshed style stations, but as mentioned its probably been decided that that option is too expensive, shame though, the train arrivel end of the station will lose the impressive frontage afforded by the arch of the roof.

[Horgy]

It looks ok, and I think will do when built, but thats an awful lot of glass on there.. My knowledge of St P isn't good, but don't MML 43's operate out of there? Will make a hell of a mess on the glass..

Horgy

[southcoasttrains]

Everything that currently goes into St. Pancras is diesal, so there will be plenty of mess.

I can't remember if they still have the OH lines there when Thameslink used to serve there. Would be handy if they did, then they wouldn't have to terminate at Hempstead when there is engineering works.

[LucaZone]

Nah the OH's have gone..........

[salopiangrowler]

I really, really hope they (CTRL) really think about it. On the other hand public opinions didnt matter as no one had chance to say no all most got down there was a letter saying trains running under your house after bla bla such a year. My personnal opinion is that it'll never work properly, I mean come on you have to travel north then do a 180 degree turn then dive under london city centre. Why didnt the whole Eurostar section go underground in a big circle like the MGR trains at a power station with straight platforms for the North of england to france and belgium services.
With 2 platforms for the circular and 2 for the northern they wouldnt need to demolish all the old buildings or factory which couldve been used as an inner city freight terminal hany for those big inner city markets and big name shops. Also at the cost of the new station and dive under the city loop the more convenient way is the one i stated above leaving ST pancras as it is. Oh and its going to be a huge fight over routing paths, Eurostar always wins. On the other hand what was wrong with waterloo I mean atleast its on the right side of the river meaning less costs like pumping stations for leaking tunnels. Victoria couldve been more appropriate as it alredy has the length of platforms needed an wouldnt interrupt the waterloo station approach lines. I myself consider STPancras a waste of valuable mony that couldve been spent esle where on the network like upgrading the WCML to 140mph who need the cash not some pokey little euro link thats going to be 186mph with all new stuff, well apart from Eurostars. Like I say It'll spiol the scenery and the beauty of St pancras, But now its started we cant do anything about it but just sit and watch one of londons best loved little termini's become one of britians newest International gateway, R.I.P ST pancras all will be gone and not forgotten. Oh and as stated the engine shed roof will still remain but for the eyes of fare paying Eurostar passengers only.

[Kevo00]

I think the decision to use St. Pancras goes back to the 1980s or even earlier. Now we know that John Major was too busy kissing the girls to even think about CTRL for many years - well anyway the Tories delayed CTRL because it was originally going to be built at the same time as the tunnel, then it was cancelled, then around the time the tunnel opened the Tories decided to build the link. When this was decided it was decided to stick with the St. Pancras idea, which isn't a bad one because it gives a mostly seperated route for high speed services right into the city. Shame about the fact that its one of the city's most scummy areas, but maybe thats the point - I seem to remember BR originally had a plan for a moneyspinning office development on the site around St. Pancras/Kings Cross.

I think the original idea for St. Pancras might have been that it would be easier to link into the ECML, MML and WCML for regional services but as that won't be happening now the decision for St. Pancras does seem a little odd, but maybe its a rare example of UK long termism. After all it could be used as the London terminus of an internal LGV system one day, perhaps around the time AFC Wimbledon reach the Premiership.

[duncharris]

Although slightly wandering off topic here...

One of the original reasons why the channel tunnel plan in the 1970s failed was because of the cost of providing a high speed line between London & Folkestone. The original line was intended to more or less follow the current route that the Eurostars use, with dedicated new tracks & tunnels where necessary. But it was to terminate at White City which was not very good for onward links.

When Eurostars started to run they decided to stick with the 3rd rail route into London because nobody would stump up the money to build a proper one. As a London terminus, White City, Victoria and Waterloo were all considered but Waterloo was chosen as BR could replace some offices between the Winsor line platforms and the main station with new Winsor line platforms and put in an international station on top of the old Winsor line platforms. So Victoria isn't as good as Waterloo for this role. And White City was probably a false economy.

The French built their LGV Nord Europe line for the opening of the Channel Tunnel, including a substantial chunk of effectively Eurostar only line between Lille and Calais. So diplomatic pressure was put on the British government to built a much shorter LGV in this country. After quite a few typical problems resulted in intervention from the government, it is being built.

Building the route into the underused St Pancras makes sense for both onward connections to the ECML, WCML and MML, but also the GEML and GWML which can be reached via Stratford and the new crosslink lines. To cover the costs of part 1 of the new LGV, new high speed commuter services were required, which in turn required dedicated tracks all the way to the terminus since south London termini are full.

Our money is being spent on this project, but the economy and the environment will recoup the costs and it will also hopefullly help proper transport spending such as Central Railway followed later by new LGVs.