Atomic Systems

This thread contains the OFF TOPIC content of Jamie Boweys POLL - Who is using the BIN Patch?

My response in that thread is repeated here as this stirred the resulting OFF TOPIC posts.

Apologies again to Jamie for allowing the original thread to be decimated as it was.
The original thread has been cleaned up and returned to the forum.


As the only person in a position to speak for the "Silent Simmers" (Those without Internet, those who do not download and those whose only interest in simming is a relaxing drive in the evening after work) the answer is a resounding NO we don't have BIN installed and unless it's on a CD that auto installs we won't be installing BIN.

Given that around fifty percent of the community are the "Silent Simmers" then making anything BIN specific limits your audience to HALF of the possible audience.

I will heartily agree that BIN has done wonders for the experience, but whilst it remains an unattainable ideal for HALF the community because it's NOT ON A CD that auto installs, it's value is dramatically reduced.

leviathan1949 wrote:As the only person in a position to speak for the "Silent Simmers" (Those without Internet, those who do not download and those whose only interest in simming is a relaxing drive in the evening after work) the answer is a resounding NO we don't have BIN installed and unless it's on a CD that auto installs we won't be installing BIN.

Given that around fifty percent of the community are the "Silent Simmers" then making anything BIN specific limits your audience to HALF of the possible audience.

I will heartily agree that BIN has done wonders for the experience, but whilst it remains an unattainable ideal for HALF the community because it's NOT ON A CD that auto installs, it's value is dramatically reduced.

?????????

Well for a start where do you get those figures from Pete and secondly has anyone asked if it can be included on a CD.

I would think the % of people who have a computer and no internet connection is tiny nowadays?

I'm also confused by your logic? If there are people who have a computer and run the sim using only self installing routes and they have no internet connection .......where are they going to get hold of stuff made by the community here?

Geoff

I did vote to say I use the BIN patch.

However, I also see exactly where Pete is coming from. There are a whole bunch of users out there who only buy stuff that is totally self installing i.e. commercial type routes or community CDs with limited buttons to press to install.

That is self-evident on the forums - whenever a route comes out within hours (usually) the question gets asked if it is going onto a CD ?

The questions we get on the UKTS Support email address are fairly enlightening as to the levels of PC literacy amongst some users - no different to the questions I deal with in my day job - total inability / unwillingness to read the instructions and follow them. I used to think there were some fairly stupid questions asked on the forums but seeing the support system opened my eyes a bit.

We get the same at the UKTSlive shows as well - people saying that they joined and downloaded stuff but can't get it to work - all the answers are usually found in the forums and I find myself answering the same questions over and over again.

Spanned zips, tsection.dat, textured skies and consist overload are the most common problems and all have been covered at length in these forums but still users are frustrated and sending plaintive emails to the support desk.

And to answer Jon - I would be surprised in 25% of people who bought routes from high-street stores had actually downloaded the patches for them. Clearly only the distributors know the true download figures but people I have spoken too had no idea that there were patches for London and South East

Well for a start where do you get those figures from Pete and secondly has anyone asked if it can be included on a CD.

The figures are based on the names of users compared to those using the forums, number of mail order forms received and discussions with users at shows we attend. NO BIN can't be included on CD, categorical statement to Matt from George, because it still in development.

I would think the % of people who have a computer and no internet connection is tiny nowadays?

Like so many people Geoff, you are of the opinion that because you have internet everybody else has.
The same logic is applied to mobile phones - Far too many think that everybody has a mobile phone.
WRONG - Again the Service providers of mobile telephony say there is only 65% penetration.
The number of people with computers WITHOUT internet is considerable if BT are to be believed.
They quoted that only 60% of computer owners had Internet in early 2007 and that there was still a vast market to be tapped.
There are also still a good percentage whose internet usage is so small (email only) that they are on dialup still.

I'm also confused by your logic? If there are people who have a computer and run the sim using only self installing routes and they have no internet connection .......where are they going to get hold of stuff made by the community here?

Simple answer is they don't get hold of stuff made by the community except via the CDs we sell from the site or give away at exhibitions.
It is the primary reason that we try to make the CDs a complete package, ie Route, stock and activities and that they auto install.

But to have a device and then not use it to its full potential is plainly foolish.

Can I assume from that statement that you make 100% use of all your household electrical items, I doubt it.

Or any of the commercial updates only distributed via the web.

Almost certainly, those without internet haven't a clue about commercial updates. One of the main reasons I have a grave dislike for the attitude of developers, "Get it out, if they find a problem, we'll issue a patch." Rail Simulator being the classic all time . up.

There are two stances to development of anything.

One is play safe, don't be innovative, appeal to the widest market and even if the product is mediocre it will sell as it is what the consumer is used to.

The other is lets go for the latest technology, sometimes even cutting edge technology. It might scare off a few customers but once those who appreciate it get hold of it thw word will spread and the product will sell.

In the cycle of things the first developer above will eventually be selling what the second developer pioneered anyway.

Frankly if you can't install the BIN patch you're probably of the % of people who would get "someone who knows about computers" to install anything even if it comes with an installer and instructions .

Life moves forward, like it or not! You either move with it or you get left behind. I'm not saying that's good! It's just how it is .

As for internet take-up my experience is based on the % of people I know in ALL walks of life who have it and use it for all manner of things. As Jon says it's the best source of information ever and there are few who don't understand that nowadays. It's everywhere. Just about everything has a web address as sure as it has a phone number.

The bottom line is that companies will not spend time on nostalgia.

"Dear Ford, I've run your cars for ages now and whilst I like them I remember in the good old days that BMC used to produce cars that ran on 5 star petrol! Are you going to provide this option in your new models?"

"Dear Mr. Brown, Having spent years and millions on development of our latest engines to run on basic unleaded petrol and provide better performance and economy than was ever achieved by models that ran on 5 star petrol we see no place for such engines in todays modern world."
An extreme example maybe but my point is that no one produces stuff because a small percentage of customers liked the way stuff used to be.

As for people having things and not using them?

That's our problem how?

The bottom line is that computing is currently on about a four year upgrade cycle. Based on releases of OS and serious software like "Office" and you have little or no choice but to get on the wagon if you want to keep in with current developments. BIN has extended the life of an aged programme and enabled performance that was previously unattainable WITHOUT upgrading your hardware. Everyone knows someone who is computer literate surely? Even if they lack the confidence to install it themselves they can get someone round for a beer or coke and cookies to sort it out for them?

If they aren't interested that's their choice. They cannot expect everything to stay still though ?

Geoff

Having Googled for some actual figures on Internet take up -

Internet Usage Stats for the UK

http://www.internetworldstats.com/eu/uk.htm

And in 4 years time (2012 Olympic year) it still won't be 70%

http://ipcarrier.blogspot.com/2008/02/u ... ps-60.html

What neither report identifies is the ratio of broadband to dialup.

To Geoffs comments:

"Dear Ford, I've run your cars for ages now and whilst I like them I remember in the good old days that BMC used to produce cars that ran on 5 star petrol! Are you going to provide this option in your new models?"

"Dear Mr. Brown, Having spent years and millions on development of our latest engines to run on basic unleaded petrol and provide better performance and economy than was ever achieved by models that ran on 5 star petrol we see no place for such engines in todays modern world."

An extreme example maybe but my point is that no one produces stuff because a small percentage of customers liked the way stuff used to be.

Getting the thread back into train simulation, turn your extreme example on its head.

"Dear Mr Brown, I've run MSTS for 6 plus years now and whilst I thoroughly enjoy it, I remember in the good old days that UKTrainSim used to produce compact discs that automatically installed whole new worlds with trains and activities and ran out of the box. Are you going to provide this capability in MidEast Plus?"

"Dear Mr. User, Having spent years and millions on development of MidEast Plus to run with MSTSBIN which provides better performance and useability than was ever achieved without MSTSBIN, we see no place for NON MSTSBIN products in todays modern world."

A theoretical example, perhaps, but my point is that developers SHOULD produce for the widest market possible, as do the commercial developers.

no one produces stuff because a small percentage of customers liked the way stuff used to be

That small percentage is around HALF of the community and they still wish to have a product that WORKS OUT OF THE BOX.

Here is a quote from systema - The MidEast Plus Route project leader made in 2007.

Bearing in mind Plus is to be usable out of the box without BIN it is limited to the 'advanced' user.

Mick

Hi Pete

I think you may be missing the point here.

Both Dorset Coast and Thames Mersey will run "out of the box" without MSTSBin installed but the MSTS settings have to be turned down for many of the Activities to run otherwise you get very bad stuttering or worse still either a "failed to load" message or a "send to Bill" message and that is with an average PC - of course when the settings are turned down a lot of the Route detail is lost.

Most of the latest Routes are very well detailed and hence the requirement for MSTSBin which improves Memory management by a quantum leap on MSTS.

Whilst I obviously accept that many people simply can't afford a high performance PC or Broadband, MSTSBin is a "Free" Utility which will definitely improve the "playability" of MSTS.

Regards

Mike

leviathan1949 wrote:Having Googled for some actual figures on Internet take up -

Internet Usage Stats for the UK

http://www.internetworldstats.com/eu/uk.htm

And in 4 years time (2012 Olympic year) it still won't be 70%

http://ipcarrier.blogspot.com/2008/02/u ... ps-60.html

What neither report identifies is the ratio of broadband to dialup.

Well I'm sorry I don't see the relevance in that at all. We're talking about a patch on a Train Simulator. Those statistics have nothing whatever to do with MSTS and BIN?

leviathan1949 wrote:To Geoffs comments:

"Dear Ford, I've run your cars for ages now and whilst I like them I remember in the good old days that BMC used to produce cars that ran on 5 star petrol! Are you going to provide this option in your new models?"

"Dear Mr. Brown, Having spent years and millions on development of our latest engines to run on basic unleaded petrol and provide better performance and economy than was ever achieved by models that ran on 5 star petrol we see no place for such engines in todays modern world."

An extreme example maybe but my point is that no one produces stuff because a small percentage of customers liked the way stuff used to be.

Getting the thread back into train simulation, turn your extreme example on its head.

"Dear Mr Brown, I've run MSTS for 6 plus years now and whilst I thoroughly enjoy it, I remember in the good old days that UKTrainSim used to produce compact discs that automatically installed whole new worlds with trains and activities and ran out of the box. Are you going to provide this capability in MidEast Plus?"

"Dear Mr. User, Having spent years and millions on development of MidEast Plus to run with MSTSBIN which provides better performance and useability than was ever achieved without MSTSBIN, we see no place for NON MSTSBIN products in todays modern world."

Well if the attitude that you can publish something at very low specs. just because more people can use it is valid? so is the stance that you will use the highest specs possible. Especially when the resources to achiev this are freely available?

As you've already pointed out even these allegedlly desirable self install straight out of the box routes rely on the internet for patches. Like it or not to get the most out of the sim you need access to the internet. Don't forget that many people have access at work at school and can get access at public libraries or Internet cafes.

leviathan1949 wrote:A theoretical example, perhaps, but my point is that developers SHOULD produce for the widest market possible, as do the commercial developers.

Really? Well I think you might find arguements against that from more developers than just me! You're entitled to the opinion but I'd suggest that those who actually give of their time to develop stuff are entitled to develop as they see fit. If others want something else there's nothing to stop them having a go themselves. It's criticism of other peoples efforts that has caused more withdrawals of models and intellectual input than any other factor. Maybe I misunderstand your point but as I read it that's a pretty "high handed" statement?

leviathan1949 wrote:

no one produces stuff because a small percentage of customers liked the way stuff used to be

That small percentage is around HALF of the community and they still wish to have a product that WORKS OUT OF THE BOX.

Well I like a couple of DOS games that have never been bettered. Unfortunately as things have moved on I'd have to go to extraordinary lengths to get them to run nowadays. People who buy routes from this site have internet access and get premium membership with the disc. They've been to this site to order them. They can therefore download BIN. There's a whole community of support here in the forums and Jon's answered two queries in this thread alone. Apart from actual spoon feeding I don't see what else we can do ?

leviathan1949 wrote:Here is a quote from systema - The MidEast Plus Route project leader made in 2007.

Bearing in mind Plus is to be usable out of the box without BIN it is limited to the 'advanced' user.

Mick

It's Mick's route but as has been fairly well publicised it's big, it's pushing the envelope a bit and it's actually doubtful if it would run smoothly or without sliders considerably down without BIN. The team have all been working with various versions of BIN and having found no problems with it have gone on to develop activities using BIN's features. Mick has gone to extraordinary lengths with scenery and to make it run smoothly without BIN you'll either have to hide this or he'd have to go through it ripping it out!!! Does it not occur to you that you've rather just rubbished our efforts?

Life is about choices and solutions.

You can choose to install complex routes or get as much pleasure from any of the brilliant shorter routes that are out there. Many of these however would have enhanced playability with BIN. BIN is available and therefore not to install it has to be again a question of choice? If I need it I can get internet access anywhere. Not because I have fancy wireless toys, but because it's available pretty much anywhere and you only need to download patches once. If you have a computer and you have software on it it got there somehow. Adding patches cannot therefore be beyond you?

Geoff

tialho wrote:Going back to the original reason for this thread (market research by Jamie regarding his activity packs), the reasons stated for folk not having the patch (no internet connection, installing CDs only) probably aren't relevant in this case, as such people would be unlikely to download the pack (especially if additional downloads from the UKTS library are required). The only case I can think of where a problem would arise would be if the pack was subsequently included on a UKTS CD or DVD (although in my experience there are activities on existing CDs that will only run reliably with BIN) - a way round this would be to include a separate installer for activities requiring BIN (as was done for the activiteis on TM4 requiring the EH1 pack).

Regards,

Tim

Tim, making BIN and NON BIN activities available as seperate "packs" within a route is no problem.

If Jamie is just producing a seperate activity pack and wants to incorporate BIN facilities in those acts he COULD, I suppose, duplicate them all as BIN or NON BIN, although cab swapping would be out so he'd potentially have to break acts into two or three parts?

Personally I don't like installers. They leave all sorts of useless clutter on your machine and for me are more trouble than they're worth. However if it comes with one I don't have the choice ....if you see where I'm coming from

One thing that IMO MUSTN'T come out of this thread is the idea that people should not be developing using the BIN patch. No one's said that but it's only a few steps along a chain of logic to that standpoint.

Geoff

Ian (dipper6) ,

You are like so many others that have 'shyed away' from MSBin because of false stories that have been posted on various Forums over time and which most were incorrect. I'm glad you have given it a try and that so far enjoyed what it offers, believe me it will only be a matter of time before you will start taking advantage of another of its features 'Cab Swapping'.

The thing is, as Jon has already stated, the Utility is simple to install and Uninstall, if you load it and find you don't get on with it then in less than 10 secs it can be removed (but you must use the 'MSBin Uninstall', that is found in your 'Train Simulator' folder to do the Uninstalling) and your MSTS installation is back to where it started.

If you are driving Steam and do not want to use Mike Simpsons Route Riter Utility to adjust the AI Wheel Rotation, then download the 1.7.051922 Stable version and the AI Steam Wheel Rotation will still perform correctly.

I cannot understand why there are still some Simmers who have never even tried it, when there is so much to be gained by using it.

To answer Mikes comment - I am not missing the point.
MSTSBIN has a lot to offer (See my previous comments), but it cannot be included on a CD for distribution, it can only be downloaded.
To repeat my First statement, fifty percent of the community of UKTS DO NOT have internet, or don't want it, or have no desire to download etc etc. The product has to work out of the box as it were.
As the "Release Candidate tester and final compiler" I am fully aware of the trials and tribulations of the likes of Dorset Coast and Thames Mersey.
I do all my testing on a 5 year old shuttle with a 1.4GHz processor, 1Gb RAM, NVidia FX4200 128Mb graphics and a 60Gb ATA150 7200 HD.
With ALL sliders down just ONE NOTCH, I get minimal stuttering, NO Failed to Load and certainly no Email Uncle Bill.
I do have Trainstore installed which takes a high percentage of the load off memory.

In reply to emrhd01 -
To repeat my First statement, fifty percent of the community of UKTS DO NOT have internet, or don't want it, or have no desire to download etc etc.
They ae NOT interested in trying the NEW TOY unless it's on CD and auto installs. Their loss, but nevertheless, their loss.

Looking at Geoffs comments -

One thing that IMO MUSTN'T come out of this thread is the idea that people should not be developing using the BIN patch. No one's said that but it's only a few steps along a chain of logic to that standpoint.

Developers SHOULD be developing models, activities etc for MSTSBIN and get my 100% support for doing so.
However, by developing solely for MSTSBIN you are restricting your product to only HALF the community.

Well I'm sorry I don't see the relevance in that at all. We're talking about a patch on a Train Simulator. Those statistics have nothing whatever to do with MSTS and BIN?

They were a more complete answer to your original question about statistics and provided links so that users could make their own judgement.

I won't bother repeating anymore of your large post but in response:
If you are building MidEastPlus as an MSTSBIN REQUIRED Route then you will limit your target audience to HALF.
As to rubbishing the efforts of the team, that is a figment of your imagination.
From where I sit, I have to view the WHOLE Community and their interests. There are many in the "Silent Simmers" who were not able to obtain the London, Tilbury, Southend route because it was a download only. If MidEastPlus is MSTSBIN only then they will be equally unhappy at that decision.

Given the expert nature of the MidEastPlus team, I am sure you will all produce a quality product, regrettably and sadly, only a limited number may ever see it and drive it.

Hi Pete,

In reply to emrhd01 -
To repeat my First statement, fifty percent of the community of UKTS DO NOT have internet, or don't want it, or have no desire to download etc etc.
They ae NOT interested in trying the NEW TOY unless it's on CD and auto installs. Their loss, but nevertheless, their loss

I understood your statement quoted above and do not challenge it, your 'hands on' dealings with the MSTS UKTS community is far greater than mine.

The reason for my Post was to, hopefully, persuade some of the 'doubters' of MSBin to at least give it a try for themselves rather than be misled by 'suspect' articles they may have read, usually posted by the anti-MSbin brigade.

After all the benefits of MSBin have always outweighed any problems that may have been experienced in the early days.

Finally to those who still refuse to give it a try, to quote Pete, "your loss".

Looks like I stirred up quite a topic here!

lateagain wrote:

tialho wrote:Going back to the original reason for this thread (market research by Jamie regarding his activity packs), the reasons stated for folk not having the patch (no internet connection, installing CDs only) probably aren't relevant in this case, as such people would be unlikely to download the pack (especially if additional downloads from the UKTS library are required). The only case I can think of where a problem would arise would be if the pack was subsequently included on a UKTS CD or DVD (although in my experience there are activities on existing CDs that will only run reliably with BIN) - a way round this would be to include a separate installer for activities requiring BIN (as was done for the activiteis on TM4 requiring the EH1 pack).

Regards,

Tim

Tim, making BIN and NON BIN activities available as seperate "packs" within a route is no problem.

If Jamie is just producing a seperate activity pack and wants to incorporate BIN facilities in those acts he COULD, I suppose, duplicate them all as BIN or NON BIN, although cab swapping would be out so he'd potentially have to break acts into two or three parts?

Personally I don't like installers. They leave all sorts of useless clutter on your machine and for me are more trouble than they're worth. However if it comes with one I don't have the choice ....if you see where I'm coming from

One thing that IMO MUSTN'T come out of this thread is the idea that people should not be developing using the BIN patch. No one's said that but it's only a few steps along a chain of logic to that standpoint.

Geoff

From my point of view, as regards to pack uploads, I think Tim nails it there. My packs are quite alot to download, anyone attempting to downlaod 30+ stock files + cabs & sounds will probably have the patch already. Problem solved? As Geoff then goes on to say, the danger is these may then find their way onto a CD (obviously this wont happen to acts written for comercial routes).

Im only just starting to realise what BIN allows me to do in terms of AI control, all the lighting etc isnt my field at all. Whilst Id agree, top heavy AI act like mine would greatly benefit from the patch, in most cases it hasnt been NEEDED in alot of my work. However, in some acts im now writing, blocking AI needs the patch to work correctly. If this fails to act as I intend it, the activity wont function how its supposed to, regardless of performance. Of course cab-swapping is a whole new field, again one im starting to explore now...

Theres certainly alot to go on from the discussions, leviathan1949 , tbh im not sure which thread to post in, but this is the last one Ive read through!

Thanks all!

Like a lot of things in life Jamie, hot potatoes are alive and kicking.

My only suggestion to modellers and activity writers especially is to add the notation (Needs MSTSBIN) in the description if it will only work with MSTSBIN. Most modellers already do include some comment to that effect ie "Works with MSTSBIN" or "Needs MSTSBIN for cabswapping" etc.
This becomes ever more important if your activity could at some point be included on a CD (With your permission of course).

With Thames Mersey, Dave Corfield identified the MSTSBIN ONLY activities and separated them out into a separate ZIP file in a separate folder on the DVD.

Pete

So, just to clarify things on my end, its advisable when making activities to separate the MSTSBIN ones from the non MSTS BIN ones?