Using the Bin patch?

[spikeyorks]

I'm a bit confused now. However all I (and I suspect many others) really want to know is this;

If MEP is a BIN only "package" then will UKTS release it as a community DVD or not ?

A straight "Yes" or "No" will satisfy me.

Thank you.

Regards David

[leviathan1949]

Then you (and and I suspect many others) will need to be patient.

The matter of putting a NON WORKING product on DVD that requires additional content is currently under discussion.
There are risks involved and the answer will only be given when the risk analysis is completed.

If any of the MidEastPlus team are in any doubt about the level of competence of users who don't download, can I invite you to attend an exhibition and TALK to the users yourselves. One member of your team does so on a regular basis, perhaps more of you should attend for first hand knowledge.

[jbilton]

Hi
Having just re-read the licence agreement, George's permission could be sought,and he might well agree under the circumstances.
As UKTS has clearly been very supportive from its early development, and how important we see this route is to our community.

License agreement
Software is distributed as is, without any warranty. The author is not responsible for any damages that may result from use of this software. User acknowlidge all feature changes and behavior of game what software is for and what are descripted in documentation. Technical documentation is indivisible part of distribution.
The archive must be distributed without modification to the contents of the archive and distrubution other way than from original web pages must be permissed by author.
Redistributing this archive with any files added, removed or modified in any manner is prohibited. License agreement is indivisible part of distribution.
Software can be used only for change of features of licensed game what it is for and only for personal use.
The inclusion of any individual file from this archive in another distribution without the prior permission of the author is prohibited. This means, for example, that you may not include elements of this archive as portions of another distribution of game or addon without first obtaining the author's permission. Any comercial using or using for improper profit is prohibited.

Cheers
Jon

[richard222]

I fear George's issue, which i know many people do share is that although there is no profit in UKTS community CDs, people will still pay money for them


Richard

[lateagain]

I fear George's issue, which i know many people do share is that although there is no profit in UKTS community CDs, people will still pay money for them


Richard

If you're talking about the idiots who buy things on e-bay clearly marked NOT FOR RESALE how is that a problem for George?

As this is a pretty fundamental issue for most of the latest routes that have been produced for MSTS let's not get too diverted here?

Geoff

[bigvern]

Having read the above debate and being in a similar position as I'm contemplating buying Feather River from 3D Trains (which also requires Bin) surely the answer is simple...

If the guy who made Bin has confidence and pride in his utility, he should be quite prepared to allow anyone who has enhanced their MSTS work to distribute it along with the content. A name in the credits or a free copy of the route in return would obviously help.

Looking at the situation and without getting sidetracked onto Community CD costing, people are going to "buy" the route anyway regardless of how they obtain Bin. So as far as any licensing is concerned, the damage is already done and the distribution will still happen, albeit indirectly and with the major tech support headaches Peter envisages. If the Bin author did not want his hack used to enhance commercial routes, or routes going out on at cost CD, then he needs to make that clear at the outset to developers - before they embark on weeks or months of work.

[rlmathers]

I would strongly advise seeking permission by the distributor, not the developers, for MSTSBin to be included on a DVD.
There are however certain `risks`.
Permission may not be granted, on commercial grounds and contrary to many perceptions, Atomic Systems IP Ltd is a commercial company.
Permission may be granted, but after release and purchase of the DVD, it could be resold.
This would obviously be in breach of the licencing agreement, which in turn would put at risk any further development of MSTSBin.
The route and any additional material, other than MSTSBin could be included on a DVD, along with an attached caveat clearly stating that the route and any other included material is ONLY MSTSBin compliant. This places the onus entirely on the purchaser.
The route and any other material associated with the route could be made available as downloadable files, at the risk of the user.

[lateagain]

Hi Ray
In the spirit of moving this forward in a constructive and positive manner I'll take your post point by point and add some observations and "think aloud"

I would strongly advise seeking permission by the distributor, not the developers, for MSTSBin to be included on a DVD.

As I understand it the developer has accepted the generosity of both the members of the international community in funding some equipment for him when his computer had a "melt down" in mid development and the distribution at present is via web space kindly donated to him by Atomic Systems. There is a link to the site within the FAQs on the Bin Forum. In other words the developer is the distributor as with many invaluable software utilities in all fields.

There are however certain `risks`.
Permission may not be granted, on commercial grounds and contrary to many perceptions, Atomic Systems IP Ltd is a commercial company.

If George had such objections he would surely have needed to get permission from the owner of the original software in order to make this available as shareware/donationware or a commercial utility product? He could then finance distribution and make availability via such sites as TWO COWS etc.?

Permission may be granted, but after release and purchase of the DVD, it could be resold.
This would obviously be in breach of the licencing agreement, which in turn would put at risk any further development of MSTSBin.

This is the case with ANY software and as you know there is a keen interest in preventing sales of community discs on E-Bay etc. George will be aware of this? As he's giving the software away and will appreciate that it's inclusion on a community disc is "at cost" to the distributor he is hardly likely to hold the distributor responsible for the illegal acts of others and indeed how can anyone be held responsible for the acts of others over whom they have no control?

The route and any additional material, other than MSTSBin could be included on a DVD, along with an attached caveat clearly stating that the route and any other included material is ONLY MSTSBin compliant. This places the onus entirely on the purchaser.

I would expect such a clause and VERY clear warnings to be a feature of the disc. ALL software comes with a precondition that it will only work with a minimum specification. Certainly Commercial add-ons for MSTS all carry a minimum spec. IF Bin is included on a route disc the difference will be that instead of saying that it is a prerequisite to installing this software that you already have a woking copy of MSTS installed it will need to say MSTS ....AS WELL AS the BIN patch. No difference to saying "this will only work on XP with Service Pack 2 and above".

The route and any other material associated with the route could be made available as downloadable files, at the risk of the user.

Indeed it would be good to see a download version available AS WELL AS a disc version..... but if support is an issue how many times has the spanned zip had to be spelt out

Those of us who work on MSTS stuff to "give" to others will surely welcome any support in distributing our efforts?

In the meantime I'd suggest that we start a seperate forum EXCLUSIVELY for establishing any problems that still exist with BIN. The authors and testers of individual uploads will be best placed to alert us to any "known" problems and by marshalling these in one forum solutions, fixes or implimentable work arounds can be shared.

Most of this is already out there but scattered across the vast wealth of knowledge in the various forums.

Co-ordinating the feedback in one place will surely help put to rest some of the myths about BIN and help towards identifying and solving the few remaining problems?

BIN has revitalised an old piece of software, fixed known problems and made available many new features. At present these have hardly been explored as reoports of early problems with the patch persist because no one bothers to get the facts before voicing the complaint. George's site has a detailed history of development and very detailed reports on the issues that are addressed in each upgrade. Mike's Route Riter has provided some fixes, although rather confusingly subsequent updates of BIN have made some or these redundant (?).

I think we should be embracing BIN, helping to make it work and exploring the new potential it gives to our hobby rather than muttering that you tried a beta that didn't work so haven't bothered to see what's happened since

Geoff

[Tonysmedley]

Geoff,

Well said!

[jbilton]

Hi
MSTS Bin does have its own forum

http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewforum.php?f=256

Cheers
Jon

[lateagain]

Hi
MSTS Bin does have its own forum

http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewforum.php?f=256

Cheers
Jon

I know it sounds daft but that precisely why I said it should be a seperate forum.

My point being that it should be almost a FAQ forum where known problem were matched with known solutions or workarounds. In other words sort the wheat from the chaff? The Bin forum is fantastically useful but like all themed forums the same point gets raised time and time again and the wheat gets buried in all this chaff?

Do you see where I'm coming from? I may not be explaining it very well. It would need to be structured and indexed so that if you had a problem with Steam you could quickly go to that, if it was "sparks" you could quickly find that too.

Basically it would be a depository for all the wisdom gained so far in a strictly indexed (rather than random) fashion.

It could be a specific thread at the head of the BIN section but the danger there is that it would just get drowned in day to day posts?

Geoff

[rlmathers]

Perhaps the route developers and more so the distributor need to think of the possible consequences of the inclusion of MSTSBin patch on any media which is for sale.
So far and to the best of my knowledge, MSTSBin patch has not been available commercially, if it was, there is no doubt Microsoft would pursue to protect it`s rights.
Commercial sale is any transaction, whether at cost or commercial rates.
Free means freely given or setup by deed or trust.
Be careful, you could be the very test case that the lawyers have been waiting for.

[lateagain]

Perhaps the route developers and more so the distributor need to think of the possible consequences of the inclusion of MSTSBin patch on any media which is for sale.
So far and to the best of my knowledge, MSTSBin patch has not been available commercially, if it was, there is no doubt Microsoft would pursue to protect it`s rights.
Commercial sale is any transaction, whether at cost or commercial rates.
Free means freely given or setup by deed or trust.
Be careful, you could be the very test case that the lawyers have been waiting for.

You might be right Ray

....but it seems more likely that I'll be Pope than a company would pursue someone for distributing software that not only enhances one of their "bargain basement" titles that's "life expired" but which has as a necessary prerequisite to get it to work ownership or purchase of their product.

Without BIN MSTS is dead in the water and there is a wealth of expertese in the public domain to support this. There is also evidence that BIN has increased the potential of the original software. There is also evidence in Worldwide forums that people are still interested in where they can obtain a copy of MSTS. Does UKTS offer ATARI's version for sale on the CD ordering page? Such distribution can only enhance interest in their product. Therefore they have lost nothing and gained sales. So they're not very likely to attack the very customer base that their product is aimed at, at huge expense, to be awarded what as compensation? The law is not an .. I seem to remember that damages of 1p have been awarded without any costs where similarly stupid litigation has been pursued?

Train Sims like Flight Sims are an enthusiast market. No publisher is going to attack the very market that supports their product and is likely to be a return customer for each and every upgrade.

ATARI might not be in the forefront of that market, but with enthusiastic support for it worldwide through enthusiat sites like UKTS and an offer to be a distributor for one of their bottom end (sales wise?) budget titles that places it right at the heart of it's market are they really likely to object?

Strikes me they've got Win/Win? The patch cost them nothing in development costs and raises the profile of one of their products.

I think we should be looking at this as an enhancement rather than whispering about it as if it were some sort of naughty "pirate ware"?

Has anyone actually contacted ATARI about this?

[lateagain]

Further to the debate....

I was trying to track down who ACTUALLY distributes MSTS now. ATARI bought it (or so we’re lead to believe?) and it was released on the Explosiv budget range……. Which Amazon now shows as being an EMPIRE title. A search of Empire’s web site does in fact show Xplosiv titles that are still available …..but MSTS is not there and a search of their site shows no matches. Is in fact ANYONE still marketing MSTS?

That doesn't mean that someone doesn't own the rights to it but it obviously doesn't seem to be of great value if it's not even available.

Given that, an approach to Empire to distribute it might get a positive response?

In any case it does seem that the first thing we need to establish is who now owns the rights to the title?

Geoff

[jbilton]

Hi Geoff
I could be wrong...........but I think Microsoft own the copyrights......... but sold the right to distribute.
This right to distribute may well have been sold on again since.
MS also stated a while back that they no longer actively supported the sim, but still freely offer the update patch from their own website.
Which I believe is why George based his work on that update version, and doesn't bundle the MSTS update with his patch.
An Italian site did bundle them together, but withdrew when George complained.
I think you're all tying yourselves in knots a little.
However it does add a further problem I had forgotten, anyone purchasing MSTS since around 2003/4 actually has a version newer that the version required to Bin patch.
So what they actually have to do is first download the update, which is actually a backdate, then install the bin patch.
I was interested to read BigVern's post that 3D trains have issued a CD which requires the Bin patch, might be worth looking into how they did that and whether they've received many technical enquiries since.
Cheers
Jon