Using the Bin patch?

[ronald parkin]

Hi Jon,

Finally I had earlier suggested (I think it got lost in the thread split) that its quite possible for a link to be included on the DVD which would download and install the Bin patch with a couple of clicks.

Would you need Georges permission to do that?

Regards

Ron P

[jbilton]

Hi Jon,

Finally I had earlier suggested (I think it got lost in the thread split) that its quite possible for a link to be included on the DVD which would download and install the Bin patch with a couple of clicks.

Would you need Georges permission to do that?

Regards

Ron P

Hi Ron
I don't think so, as the actual patch would not be included on the DVD.
I am imagining something similar to the Class 156 installer that was used a while back, which after installing was able to check whether you had the cabview and sounds already installed, and if not gave you the option to automatically download and install.
Cheers
Jon

[lateagain]

Hi Jon,

Finally I had earlier suggested (I think it got lost in the thread split) that its quite possible for a link to be included on the DVD which would download and install the Bin patch with a couple of clicks.

Would you need Georges permission to do that?

Regards

Ron P

Is the patch not hosted by UKTS anyway? The link is out there and obviously there is no issue with drawing attention to it or linking to it as links exist within these forums and on TS.com.

George has gone to great lengths to explain things on the site, both in terms of history, development, where problems arose, how they were fixed etc.

He's created an easy to install and easy to uninstall patch. It's not a big file.

All in all I doubt there's actually anything much simpler to install? Even installing the basic MSTS programme involves disk changes.

NOT to install it has to be in 95% of cases a matter of choice. Anyone who really wants it will get it one way or another. The internet (as I keep pointing out) is available in all manner of places. You don't have to have a home connection. Further more in Libraries and Internet Cafes there will be qualified staff to help even the most nervous of novice navigate their way through the process.

We all have to learn new skills constantly. IT reaches every part of our daily lives. I don't believe the average person is as daunted by this as is suggested here. I DO believe there'll always be a small percentage of the population that expects to be spoon fed EVERYTHING in life..... well MEP won't be one of them To upload a complex route and hope that it will run without the very utility that has been used for the greater part of it's development is nonsence. When it falls over or fails to work the howls of protest will run and run.

When you buy a commercial add-on the box states specifically what is required to run it. If you haven't got that spec there's no point installing it.

I'm expecting to have to upgrade my entire computer to be able to run MSTS2. Complaining that a route will only run with BIN is IMHO as ridiculous as expecting MSTS2 to run in Windows 98.

Geoff

[douglee]

Hi Geoff,
I have been following this.

That is it in a nutshell.

[emrhd01]

Here,Here.

I agree completely.

[jbilton]

Hi Geoff
I see the point as, that the proposed MEP would be the first UKTS distributed CD/DVD which will not run 'straight out of the box'.
I think this is what Pete has been trying to get at, and he is also possibly predicting an amount of complaints UKTS could then have to deal with from non technically minded users, who would suddenly find that their MSTS had stopped working.
These presumably would be requests for assistance via telephone, based on the presumption these users do not have internet connections, or frequent the help forums.
Obviously it will be down to UKTS to decide if under these conditions,they want to distribute and or host the download.
I would imagine in hindsight the MEP team, maybe should have made UKTS management aware of their decision.
Although the Bin patch site is hosted, generously by Matt, it is technically a website in its own right.
I don't believe there is currently a direct link from UKTS to the Bin site.
But as I posted earlier I have no real opinions on the matter, only suggestions of possible solutions of compromise.
Cheers
Jon

[lateagain]

Hi Geoff, As I posted earlier I have no real opinions on the matter.......Jon

Jon I've taken you out of your post here because I want to answer your points objectively and in no way personalise the responses to you. Your post is in that spirit and I don't want anyone getting confused that I'm countering your point of view but rather addressing the points raised impersonally.

I think the point is that the proposed MEP will be the first UKTS distributed CD/DVD which will not run 'straight out of the box'.

Frankly this is nonsense. Any Software that you install requires certain hardware specification, a specific Operating System and usually a number of additional Microsoft utilities that have been developed since the original operating system was developed. If you don't have these and the software requires them it will not run. If you contact Microsoft support they will tell you to download and install the necessary missing parts of the OS or missing utility. If you decide that that is totally impossible I guess you don't get to use the software?? If you look at all the other utilities that are required to run UKTS routes most of which have to be downloaded and installed the BIN patch is probably the simplest of the lot!

I think this is what Pete has been trying to get at, and he is possibly predicting an amount of complaints UKTS could then have to deal with from non technically minded users, who would suddenly find that their MSTS had stopped working.

I think the fact that the only difference between this and any other route that has been issued is the necessity to have BIN installed, which as I've pointed out is probably simpler than installing a route, its, stock pack, it's activity pack and it's documents anyway. BIN cabs and stock with BIN features is readily available for download. Do they get complaints about that?

These presumably would requests for assistance via telephone, based on the presumption these users do not have internet connections, or frequent the forums.

They give out a helpline telephone number???? That's news to me!

Obviously it will be down to UKTS to decide if under those conditions,they want to distribute and or host the download.

Equally if they decide they don't want to host or distribute it we'll have a lot of extra work to do on the permissions front and in establishing an alternative method of distribution. The team has put in years of work on this route with the one objective of sharing with the community. It would be a sad day if the leading site in the community took such a negative stance.

I would imagine in hindsight the MEP team, maybe should have made UKTS management aware of their decision.

Pete and Matt both have access to the Private development forum. This is NOT news.

Although the Bin patch site is hosted, generously by Matt, it is technically a website in its own right.
I don't believe there is currently a direct link from UKTS to the Bin site.

Well that's how I linked to it for this thread???

only suggestions of possible solutions of compromise.

As I said earlier I've spent years helping people solve real problems but don't have much time for solving invented ones. I find it hard to believe that anyone who is really as technically incompetent as is suggested would even attempt to install software. Of course if this "Oh I can't possibly do that..." is really "Oh I want you to do that for me... " well frankly having given up 90% of my Hobby time to developing this route for three years my response is "....well tough!"

We've gone to unprecedented lengths to create a route which is tested, with custom stock that is not only compatible, tested and "Binned" but also has the physics tweaked on each and every piece. The level of scenery is (and I'm biased of course) some of the best I've seen in any route so far. The activity writers have provided classic ECML activities AND tried out some new ideas to test out BIN capabilities. We've developed animations for scenery. We've new models from more than one author and Reg has released his 25's to the library as I suggested to him that there were so many other routes that they'd be good on. This route has been three years of pretty much constant input by a growing team of people The first release will require the ability to download future patches as there is a small percentage of scenery still to be completed AND Mick is interested in expanding the Route still further as Dave has done with Dorset Coast. I don't remember all this breast beating when patches were uploaded for Thames Mersey or Dorset Coast?

I'd actually suggest that there's a bigger silent majority out there who do want MEP than this "apparent mass of technophobes"? Don't you think they might be somewhat disappointed if this negative stance continues?

This is Mick's route and I've stood by Mick's decisions and will continue to support his efforts whatever the future of the route is. The opinions expressed above are mine personally. I do not speak for other members of the MEP team but as they've given two to three years of their time to this project I can tell you none of them are very happy about this thread.

One thing is for sure. This is a big project and a big route. It's got as far as it has due to fantastic support and generosity from this community. If other members of the community are going to obstuct it they will have a lot of clout because so much hangs on good will and cooperation.

Geoff

[jbilton]

If you look at all the other utilities that are required to run UKTS routes most of which have to be downloaded and installed the BIN patch is probably the simplest of the lot!


Geoff

Hi Geoff
All UKTS CDs to date come complete with ALL and ANY utilities required, the user does not have to download anything.
You can argue that the Bin patch is easy to find , download, install, run, uninstall etc,
But the MEP team (or UKTS) will be issuing a DVD that will NOT run out of the box, period.
Sorry mate but that is fact.
Cheers
Jon

[lateagain]

If you look at all the other utilities that are required to run UKTS routes most of which have to be downloaded and installed the BIN patch is probably the simplest of the lot!


Geoff

Hi Geoff
All UKTS CDs to date come complete with ALL and ANY utilities required, the user does not have to download anything.
You can argue that the Bin patch is easy to find , download, install, run, uninstall etc,
But the MEP team (or UKTS) will be issuing a DVD that will NOT run out of the box, period.
Sorry mate but that is fact.
Cheers
Jon

Correct! The box will need to state "You must have BIN installed for this route to work".

It's called choice?

We make thousands each year unless we're institutionalised .

IF this is such an issue it's time to "put up or shut up" frankly.

Progress requires a little courage. It never came from taking the "safe" route.

The people who've donated their time, creativity, efforts, permissions and sat down and created this route and stock and objects for it have earnt the right to that amount or respect.

MEP will be released. One way or another.

Geoff

[jbilton]

If you look at all the other utilities that are required to run UKTS routes most of which have to be downloaded and installed the BIN patch is probably the simplest of the lot!


Geoff

Hi Geoff
All UKTS CDs to date come complete with ALL and ANY utilities required, the user does not have to download anything.
You can argue that the Bin patch is easy to find , download, install, run, uninstall etc,
But the MEP team (or UKTS) will be issuing a DVD that will NOT run out of the box, period.
Sorry mate but that is fact.
Cheers
Jon

Correct!

It's called choice?

We make thousands each year unless we're institutionalised .

IF this is such an issue it's time to "put up or shut up" frankly.

The people who've donated their time, creativity, efforts, permissions and sat down and created this route and stock and objects for it have earnt the right to that amount or respect.

Geoff

Hi Geoff
I totally agree with you.
I was just reinforcing, and hopefully clarifying, Pete's earlier point that the MEP DVD will be different to any other that's gone before.
Now whether this does restricts the enjoyment to only half the total amount of simmers, I wouldn't know or care to speculate on.
I would imagine though, that giving it away free at UKTS roadshows might be more difficult.
However if this forced any of these 'silent simmers' to connect and become actively involved in the community, I could only personally view as a positive outcome.
Cheers
Jon

[Tonysmedley]

This community is proud of the fact that hundreds od additional items, from small bits to complete routes, have been produced voluntarily by dedicated people who have then wanted others to enjoy the resuts of their efforts. They have done this using a system where the only cost is to cover the efforts of duplicating and posting and, very occasionally making a small donation to a related charty. Their own financial gain is completely nominal.
If they had wanted to, they could have sold their products on the commercial market and they would be on sale at shops throigh out the country. In that case a purchaser would have a right to complain if he found that he had to acquire some unknown thing before the route would work..
When it is distributed in the closed shop which is the UKTrainsim community I believe thatvit is upmto the authors to do what they want, We do not have to put out our petty cash if we do not like what they are offering. We would of course want to know whatvwas involved in taking up the route, just as we do at present. There are a,read a good number of routes which I could not run on my modest PC set up without additionally downloading Train Store .and the bin patch. If a new route needs the bin patch and I want the route then I will not complain.
I cannot understand why this thread has run on so long.

[jbilton]

Hi Tony
As I posted earlier AFAIK there are no MSTS routes that actually NEED the Bin patch to run.
It maybe they will run better with it installed, but they WILL run without it.
I think the thread will continue to run, until that fact is acknowledged.
Cheers
Jon

[Easilyconfused]

The thread runs because people continue to post on it. If the moderators were to lock it then doubtless PMs would be received complaining we were stifling debate. Personally I think it is going in circles with the risk that people are sooner or later going to take offence.

I can't wait for MEP since it looks stunning. I have a previous version of the BIN patch installed (not sure what exactly) and it works. I do agree with Pete that requiring the patch will potentially restrict sales and cause more support load on the support desk and forums.

Nobody is denigrating what the MEP team have achieved and why they should be unhappy with this thread somewhat eludes me but I don't have visibility of the route building forums unlike Pete and Matt so I can't comment on when the BIN requirement became known. I do have visibility of the support desk and spend a couple of hours each day reviewing and answering tickets there so I do see the level of expertise that some members have.

[leviathan1949]

Regrettably, with all the Breast Beating, my original cause for concern has been missed or overlooked.
lateagain states he has 20 years Union Rep experience fighting for the Underdog and the issues they have.
For those that use the file library and download files and experience problems then these are the users that
lateagain and others are helping out with their problems.

This is my cause for concern:
As for the "Silent Simmers" he nor anybody else has a corner to fight because they CHOOSE NOT to download
and are NOT registered on the forum.
As stated previously, around 50% of CD sales come from the users of the forum, another 40% come from users
who have registered on the site but CHOOSE NOT to download from the library and the last 10% come from users
who send mail order forms or letters via Royal Mail or from telephone calls. It is this 50% that give me cause for
concern. They DO NOT or CANNOT download.

Stated by jbilton

I would imagine in hindsight the MEP team, maybe should have made UKTS management aware of their decision.

The following are quoted from the PRIVATE MEP forum that lateagain alluded to in repsonse to jbilton

As recent as 18th February lateagain stated

Is anyone having any BIN problems on the team?

If not I suggest we just say it's a BIN route. Go get it?

That was the first "unofficial" indication that MidEastPlus was going down the MSTSBIN Route.

Much more recently, 11th March to be exact, systema (MidEastPlus Route Author) stated

MEP is now a BIN ONLY route

Hopefully that answers jbiltons question and identifies to everybody else when WE (UKTS) became aware of the decision.

Stated by lateagain

If you contact Microsoft support they will tell you to download and install the necessary missing parts of the OS or missing utility. If you decide that that is totally impossible I guess you don't get to use the software??

There is a system in place for those WITHOUT INTERNET to obtain updates etc from Microsoft on CD for a price.

Stated by lateagain

I think the fact that the only difference between this and any other route that has been issued is the necessity to have BIN installed, which as I've pointed out is probably simpler than installing a route, its, stock pack, it's activity pack and it's documents anyway. BIN cabs and stock with BIN features is readily available for download. Do they get complaints about that?

Yes we do get complaints and numerous queries, both in the forums and via the Support Desk. Those who post on the forums make their statements there, those who DO NOT BY CHOICE use the forums, email their statements via the Support Desk.

Stated by lateagain

We've gone to unprecedented lengths to create a route which is tested, with custom stock that is not only compatible, tested and "Binned" but also has the physics tweaked on each and every piece. The level of scenery is (and I'm biased of course) some of the best I've seen in any route so far. The activity writers have provided classic ECML activities AND tried out some new ideas to test out BIN capabilities. We've developed animations for scenery. We've new models from more than one author and Reg has released his 25's to the library as I suggested to him that there were so many other routes that they'd be good on. This route has been three years of pretty much constant input by a growing team of people The first release will require the ability to download future patches as there is a small percentage of scenery still to be completed AND Mick is interested in expanding the Route still further as Dave has done with Dorset Coast. I don't remember all this breast beating when patches were uploaded for Thames Mersey or Dorset Coast?

For the 50% who CHOOSE NOT to download or use Royal Mail, they still had a working route, stock and activities WITHOUT the patches.
In the majority of cases the patches were fixes for broken couplings and additional activities, more recently stock replacements.
CDs and DVDs are fully tested before release, even if that takes 6 months, as it did with the Thames Mersey DVD.
This 50% are equally oblivious to the commercial patches / updates that are available for products they may have purchased.

[lateagain]

Hi Geoff
I totally agree with you.
I was just reinforcing, and hopefully clarifying, Pete's earlier point that the MEP DVD will be different to any other that's gone before.
Now whether this does restricts the enjoyment to only half the total amount of simmers, I wouldn't know or care to speculate on.
I would imagine though, that giving it away free at UKTS roadshows might be more difficult.
However if this forced any of these 'silent simmers' to connect and become actively involved in the community, I could only personally view as a positive outcome.
Cheers
Jon

Jon your point about others becoming more actively involved in the hobby has not fallen on deaf ears! You've been saying it for years..... but there's none so deaf as those who don't want to hear! Getting involved with MEP has forced me to learn many new skills and the generosity, helpfulness and encouragement of all those who are actively creating stuff has been a massive support to me personally as well as the route.

If you look at turn outs at elections the % quoted by Pete for involvement in the forums and downloading is actually remarkable! It's remarkable because the hobby attracts people of ALL ages. Statistically the older fans are less likely to be computer literate BUT the old are not stupid. Old dogs learn a lot of new tricks. Even the technically inept have friends and families and statistically these will include the odd "nerd"

25 years ago anyone who bought a home computer was laughed at by the vast majority of the population. As workstations became the norm in just about every office and place of employment "Mr Average" began to see their potential. When the internet came about and also became a common tool "Mr Average" was again quick to see the point.

First Colleges ripped out workshops to install computer suites and soon schools were doing the same. By the time my daughter went to JUNIOR school they were apologising that there were not enough computers there.

The UK is one of THE top users of PC's.

BUT there will always be detractors, objectors and the downright obstinate.

Arguing the toss over statistics gets us nowhere.

Realistically, getting BIN is only a problem if you're determined to make it one?

SO

Giving discs away a problem? It will be if they don't want to distribute it . Alerting people to the fact that the minimum specification for the route is MSTS with the BIN patch installed does not strike me as a massive problem. neither does supporting that concept. It's about a positive attitude and making it seem achievable to anybody, which, albeit with some help it surely is?

Many folk here use Trainstore. By comparison with BIN it's a MASSIVELY complex piece of software. I wouldn't pretend that I understand all it's potential but I learn by reading threads and asking questions. Obviously not everyone uses it yet as not a day goes by without someone describing the symptoms for it's need and being advised to download it. Most readers of this forum could quote the limitations that indicate the necessity for it's use without blinking. They learnt that.

BIN you install and read the simple instructions and then just get on with Train Simming.

As for your final comment about forcing people to get online and get involved....Hear Hear!

Right now a frustrated Train Sim fan is struggling with something who might in a few months time be forcing "old lags" like you and me off the threads with their input..... and who knows also their creativity. Most of us need a kick in the rear to get us going. Spoonfeeding never motivated anything other than laziness and obesity.

If this was a community where we didn't fall over one another to help anyone I'd accept this was a problem. The harsh reality is that some folk are beyond help as they refuse to take any steps to help themselves. Not just in Train Simming but in life.

Geoff