Now Hang On A Minute!

[eyore]

Geoff

I agree with what I believe you're suggesting, indeed I made a similar suggestion last July in regard of abandoned files...

Perhaps, as we go to so much trouble when we upload, filling boxes with information on route, file type, Class etc it would not be too much of an imposition to add an additional box where the author can select his copyright preference from a prepared list, with particular reference to abandonment?

If the field could be made compulsory, then all future uploads would comply with your proposal. Retrospective approvals are a bit more difficult.

[lateagain]

Lets be fair though, the utmost simple solution would have been to revert to 512 textures

Actually no in this case. It's about rescaling and simple math. Mark & Andy covered just about all the Mk2's and Tim has only covered about half as many. If we had nothing else to do to get the route finished that would be different.

What happened to the community 'developing' by someone else replacing the textures ? The way some of the posts read, the only reason for no one doing anything else is because there was already good versions in play.

Some of the posters pointed out quite rightly that until you "get your hands dirty" you're missing out on half the fun. Before I got involved with MEP I'd played around with reskinning but given up when things didn't seem to work. Frustration at not finding just what you need made me persevere and I've not looked back. I wholeheartedly endorse any call to "have a go".

Before I got involved I read somewhere here a comment along the lines of "releasing yet another route with the same old stock" and I thought it a bit harsh but it stuck in my mind. When we set out to choose stock for MEP we decided that we wouldn't just take what was easily available we'd ask far and wide. We did and got some generous and surprising offers. We didn't just sit back though we then set about tweaking skins for colour, depth of colour, renumbering where appropriate and looking at all aspects of performance, lighting, Binning, night cabs etc. We've looked at animation for scenery, we've used just about all of Mikes output of trees and shrubs, other members of the team have custom built bridges and stations and even entire Mills.

Anyone who thinks that building a route is just slapping a bit of track down and nicking everyone elses work needs to e-mail Mick and ask him how easy it is? I know that you know what I'm talking about Dave, but judging by some comments that get posted I thought I'd spell it out for those under any illusions.

Geoff

[terrycunliffe]

Geoff,
The way some of the posts read, the only reason for no one doing anything else is because there was already good versions in play.

I think you hit the nail on the head there Dave. No point in trying to re-invent the wheel if the only one you think you can offer would have a wooden tyre, whilst the one on the cart is already pneumatic. .
I think we can put your work into the latter category too.
T

[buffy500]

Actually no in this case. It's about rescaling and simple math. Mark & Andy covered just about all the Mk2's and Tim has only covered about half as many. If we had nothing else to do to get the route finished that would be different.

I'm not sure I get you.

Alex's uploads were as I remember it, just textures were included in the 1024 version, I'm not 100% what the original textures consisted of, and who authored them. It was made sound as if they were different to Alex's 1024's, but clearly if he did the 512's then thats a no goer.
But the models dont need resizing or the physics changing just to use a smaller texture.

[Breedlings]

Well thank you to Bob for putting his head above the parapet and summarising things so nicely.

Matt, your post said so much more than the response which was passed to me by your messenger.
The response that was passed to me was 'No', and as it was in quotes must be regarded as verbatim. That kind of response is not really going to provoke a discussion, just a reaction. A simple "no" does not make any suggestion that issues are open to negotiation.

It's more than entertaining to recount that your offer, not laid out in the manner you would have people believe here and relayed via a third party only happened when you realised that things were about to explode, too little too late springs to mind. Lets be honest here none of the CDs in question would have existed had it not been for what some (but not myself at the present time) would regard as unlawful use of the content. It's ironic to note that reskins of the models were stopped due to the behaviour of the 'community' although the exact reason now escapes me.

We have already seen the normal faces standing up and defending UKTS without knowing the full story.
The bottom line is that UKTS is a business and its virtually its entire business model relies on work being uploaded for free, there are no two ways about that and Companies House confirms this.
While its obvious that there are costs involved in providing the service, but there is a fine line between covering costs and making a healthy profit.

The fact still remains though that material has been repeatedly used on CDs that are sold in such a manner as to generate income without permission or restitution. Obviously from their reactions I'm sure some people would be more than happy for someone to take their car for a couple of weeks without asking.

Congratulations Ian on getting some recognition and at least in your case overturning the injustice that is served to so many people, often without them realising. It's ironic really that those who create possibly download the least as they have no time to play, lets hope the stand I've made helps others to realise they're being taken advantage of like you.

Frankly with due respect what some people here think is irrelevent as at the end of the day they only hold the position they do because they toe the party line or don't know the realities. What I do hope is that slowly people will realise that what they do as hobby for the warm fuzzy feeling creates real returns for others and sometimes it would be nice to at least have that admitted to.

Lad491 - thanks for the lasting recognition. At least it means you're thinking about some of us a lot more now than you ever would have before.

[lateagain]

Actually no in this case. It's about rescaling and simple math. Mark & Andy covered just about all the Mk2's and Tim has only covered about half as many. If we had nothing else to do to get the route finished that would be different.

I'm not sure I get you.

Alex's uploads were as I remember it, just textures were included in the 1024 version, I'm not 100% what the original textures consisted of, and who authored them. It was made sound as if they were different to Alex's 1024's, but clearly if he did the 512's then thats a no goer.
But the models dont need resizing or the physics changing just to use a smaller texture.

Alex's 1024 textures were excellent. We chose to use them. I'm sure Andy and Mark would agree they enhanced the models. They also by chance (or design) matched almost perfectly with Dave Roles excellent Mk1 skins and the rescaling of the Mk2's was to bring height and width in line with Ian's latest versions of the Mk1's. Alex's skinned versions of the Mk2s worked perfectly to form the typical Mk1/Mk2 mixed consists that were in everyday usage on the ECML. Tim's EH2 pack also contains the necessary Mk1's (BG and Buffet/Restaurant) carriages in the same style as his Mk2's. They also of course match Tims 124's which will also be in the route. We've more to do and this has been an unwelcome diversion. We're also hoping to exploit what we consider one of Ian Mac's most undervalued contributions but this means extra work by us not Ian. All I can say is that when we've finished we hope that this will be a tribute to the authors who've been so generous and will be one of the most comprehensive of "community" (freeware, donationware and commercial authors) supported routes available.

BTW in my previous list of tasks for route builders I forgot standardising brakes, standardising couplings, aliasing cabs (to the same view) aliasing sounds, tweaking sounds.......and a few more that I'll think of the moment I hit Submit.

Geoff

[Lad491]

would just say, and particularly in view of some of the posts on thelocked forum, that Laurie has written, rewritten and fixed, then fixed and fixed again activities for Mid East Plus. The withdrawals out of the blue, and to our knowledge through no action of ours, of the Mk2's was just about the final straw for Laurie and if his post seems a little "venomous"? You have to take my word that this is the reason

Thanks Geoff for trying to explain my reasons, but on this occasion its completely wrong as I hadnt even started to use the new stock yet, all my work being done on the old stock. My reasons were no diferent to those two years ago when the other stock wihdrawals took place. In my view that was a totally unacceptable act which trashed many peoples work, both on CD's and for download. It didnt matter whether it was my work or that of others. We were all affected. It was meant to be venomous as thats how i felt initially, and still feel.

Dave yes you are right that here are two sides to an argument, but I have to say ive known Pete and Matt for a long time now and i have no doubt as to their integrity. Im happy that the matter is as Matt has stated.

At least it means you're thinking about some of us a lot more now than you ever would have before.

Dont flatter yourself. The only thought i will be giving you is to check your name doesnt appear on anything im downloading.

[RobertM]

Alex's uploads were as I remember it, just textures were included in the 1024 version

Alex also did the only Regional Railways coaches, which he repainted from Blue & Grey, so they will be lost

[buffy500]

Dave yes you are right that here are two sides to an argument, but I have to say ive known Pete and Matt for a long time now and i have no doubt as to their integrity. Im happy that the matter is as Matt has stated.

And I have know Alex for about the same kind of time, and I am just as happy that Alex is reliable with no reason to not be saying it as he came to him.

Maybe this is the problem, maybe the message got 'confused' in the passing ? If both sides are recalling it exactly as it happened, I'm not sure that there can any other explanation than the message sent was not the same as the message received.

Thanks Geoff for trying to explain my reasons, but on this occasion its completely wrong as I hadnt even started to use the new stock yet, all my work being done on the old stock. My reasons were no diferent to those two years ago when the other stock wihdrawals took place. In my view that was a totally unacceptable act which trashed many peoples work, both on CD's and for download. It didnt matter whether it was my work or that of others. We were all affected. It was meant to be venomous as thats how i felt initially, and still feel.

Its maybe then just a bit of a shame that your morals do not in the slightest appear to accept that someone else has the right to be upset when thier hard work has been misused and trust misplaced. Or is some peoples work is simply more valuble than others ?
The way it feels is (and has done for a while) that the 'want of the many' out weigh the rights of the few, which is a bit of shame as the 'wants of the many', rely in a significant part on the continued sharing of the work of the few. In your case, you are 'part of the many' and the 'few' at the same time.
I actually can't believe that you have absolutely no sympathy at all for the work of a fellow creator being misused. That risks putting you in the "take take take camp", so I'd be carefull of that attitude.

Dont flatter yourself. The only thought i will be giving you is to check your name doesnt appear on anything im downloading.

To be honest, comments written like that give the impression of you being a spoiled child, which I know is not true of you (even if there is a logical reason for it, which I suspect there is)

[sp762]

"Send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance."

If only people would check things they aren't sure off, rather than going off in a snit, I'm certain we'd all be better off.

[lateagain]

Alex's uploads were as I remember it, just textures were included in the 1024 version

Alex also did the only Regional Railways coaches, which he repainted from Blue & Grey, so they will be lost

Robert I agree with Dave's point. Alex's skins will be lost, and lets not beat about the bush here...they'll be lost to route CD's as a ready to install feature ....I'll come back to that....BUT there's no reason why someone shouldn't do some new ones? There are a vast silent majority (never been one of my strong points ) out there who are more interested in the creativity and concept of sharing than contributing to the forums. As we found with MEP a query as to availability of, or permission to use the work of an author often lead to them offering to complete a finished project or have a look at it for us. They even produced entirely new versions of old favourites. There's not a lot of point in producing stuff for the Sim if you don't want to share it and see it used and like all creative endeavour a goal or target focuses the mind.

The really silly part of withdrawing files and putting them somewhere else is that someone issuing work on a disc can always direct the purchaser of the disc to the source of the Files and say "go get 'em because we've used them here anyway." Apart from causing the inconvenience of having to download additional files from various sources there is actually no difference. Just as there is no difference between electing to source files on a disc or download them.

I'm convinced that if you ask around there are folk who'd happily set about creating Regional Skins for the models, with Andy and Mark's permission of course, but if Alex intends to make them available from another site I've outlined a different solution.

Geoff

[phill70]

I am In the process of doing some TPE reskins, its going to take a while as I've never tried before, great learning curve.
But I will get there in the end.

[buffy500]

I'm convinced that if you ask around there are folk who'd happily set about creating Regional Skins for the models, with Alex and Mark's permission of course, but if Alex intends to make them available from another site I've outlined a different solution.

The only problem is (I think) that I due to previous issues the model author has decided not to allow any reskins of the models.
Another case of the community biting the hand that fed it.

And yes, it is a case of give and take, but the bottom line is content creators can live without the community (especially if they decide they've had enough and move on to other interests like Andy D has) a lot better than the community can live without content creators.
Otherwise you end up with a community which spends its life repainting 4 year old models, without anything really new coming along, oh actually that sounds familiar to a degree.

[40058]

I'm convinced that if you ask around there are folk who'd happily set about creating Regional Skins for the models, with Alex and Mark's permission of course, but if Alex intends to make them available from another site I've outlined a different solution.

The only problem is (I think) that I due to previous issues the model author has decided not to allow any reskins of the models.
Another case of the community biting the hand that fed it.

And yes, it is a case of give and take, but the bottom line is content creators can live without the community (especially if they decide they've had enough and move on to other interests like Andy D has) a lot better than the community can live without content creators.
Otherwise you end up with a community which spends its life repainting 4 year old models, without anything really new coming along, oh actually that sounds familiar to a degree.

Oh dear... kinda kills this idea to a point http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic. ... 38&t=79566

40058

[phill70]

Just to point out that I am not reskinning 4 year old stock, its a fair bit newer than that.