Get them while you can

[phat2003uk]

A few bits of my work have appeared on CDs without me knowing....and i've never had a copy of the CD. But to be honest I couldn't give a fuss....it's more of an honour that my work is good enough for the CD than anything!

Dave

I agree, I really resent these sort of actions by people. I really don't know why they upload in the first place if they're not happy for it to be on a CD? Lack of community spirit in my opinion... The total disregard for all the time people have spent making activities using these coaches is also quite disgraceful!

[buffy500]

I have literally walked in the door from a few days away and this is news to me.

But for the record, the MKII's in SCE will be a progression of the MKII's which were in GE (and the mapping also changed for GE I think) so there is absolutely no connection with withdrawl of anything and the release of SCE.

[champy]

Im trying hard after reading three pages of complaints and a couple of thanks, to comprehend what the problem is? Its someones work that they have put time and effort into, and they for whatever reason have chosen to remove it? Is it not their choice to? As they own the rights to the Model or skins. So im right in now grasping the concept that any model/reskin anyone may do, is now forbidden to be removed if it has ever been included in any Acts or CD/DVDs?

Unfortunately this will have an affect on peoples acts but there are alternatives availible, such as Tim Cs MK2s, which people havent fully used to their true capabilities. Is this because no one can be arsed to do the reskins, like Alex had done previuosly?
Also changing the stock applied in an Activity is easy enough, as MSTS actually on takes the physics of the AI Lead Loco and the length is only factor which if the models are made to the correct size, would be damn near identical?

Mountain and mole hill spring to mind.
Is it any wonder why people withdraw stuff when this happens?

Jon

[trainmad]

The fact is that there are a fair few activities that use these MKII coaches.

Once removed the forum will be jammed with 'I can't find these coaches in the download library for this activity' posts again... I think thats what most people are 'annoyed' as such about.

Of course in the end, its the person who did the reskin/model's right to and decision to take them down but it would be nice if this could be reconsidered for the benefit of everybody.

[lateagain]

Ray you're not in the legal profession by any chance are you? Whether you are or not you seem to be mixing legalese and morality and it doesn't come across in a very constructive way. I'm sure you don't intend that and I'll address your points as you make them

Well here we are again, withdrawl of content.
Content providers have the right to withdraw their material and the right to grant permission or deny it`s use. They have no moral obligation to either UKTS or to anyone who may download such material. It is freely given and freely downloaded.

There's that word again RIGHTS. As a union rep I spent years supporting people's rights when they felt they had been infringed upon and often their complaint was with good cause. Many complainants however seemed to have overlooked the fact that they had responsibilities that were the other side of the balance. It wasn't simple contract law. It went further than that. They had a contractual responsibility to their employer and they had a moral responsibility to their colleagues. I doubt you'll find many here who agree that uploaders have no moral responsibility to others who form part of the train Sim "community" In fact the whole point about morality and community and law is that it is the basis on which we live and ineract together. The opposite point of view, still fashionable in some quarters is Anarchy. I really doubt that you're proposing we set up "The Anarchists TrainSim Site" to counter "the oppression" of UKTS ...are you?

Once you depart from those principles, you are down the road of commercialism. A new set of rules apply and unless they are contractual to all parties, litigation from the aggrevied may be the result.

Well you'd have to be pretty keen to spend your money to start litigation over a TrainSim file , but there's always someone I suppose? Frankly it beats me why everyone tries to make this something it isn't whilst ignoring what it actually is. There are thousands of files here representing millions of man hours of effort and endeavour, offered freely, as you've observed, and for no more reward other than the knowledge that someone else might derive some pleasure from them. You only have to look at some of the names who've posted in this thread to start a catalogue of generosity and helpfulness. THIS ISN'T a commercial enterprise. We have not come together to conduct commercial business. It's perhaps noteable that many of the Commercial Add-on creators have been extremely generous in allowing their stuff to be used in community projects which is something found in other endeavours but not very often. Find another parallel to the Train Sim scene and discuss how they do things and that may be of interest but this isn't a commercial scene.

Whether you call them community disks and charge £4.50 makes not the slightest difference they are no longer free to obtain.

And just what is free? I've yet to find anything? Ask me to help you with afile ray and I'll whip it on a CD and post it to you. My pleasure Ask me to mail a copy to 50 of your friends and colleagues and I'll tell you to go whistle
The CD's are an alternative medium to deliver files. They're used in just about all endeavour where computer files are transferred. At this moment your personal details are probably being transferred from a lost government CD onto some fraudsters HDD if the news is to be believed Here's the point though. They offer choice. They also allow large amounts of data to be distributed in an easily obtainable and useable form. You don't have to buy them.

I would strongly advise UKTS and those who may contribute to such CD`s to agree terms.

Now here we actually agree, although your response to my post on another thread on this issue seemed to negate such an aim .

I understand perfectly why the CD`s are so popular, but like so many other things in life, taking a short cut can lead you on the wrong path and a mess soon turns into a nightmare. Using a CD teaches you absolutely nothing about the vagaries of MSTS, only inherent errors are passed on to the user, then the questions start in the forum why doesn`t this work?

Well I'm sorry there's no polite way of putting this. That's nonsense. It's a file distribution method. No more, no less. There's no more chance of data on a CD having errors than there is data that's downloaded and in fact with huge files there's considerably less. Discs seem to have been elevated to some form of alchemy here. It's a storage medium. Before that we had tapes. To suggest that the recipient is going to ineract with the data in adifferent way because of the medium he recieved it on is ridiculous.

I would encourage all to download routes, stock and any other item individually and lets support everyone in their endeavours.

Do you realise how many man hours goes into creating a route. How much it costs the developers in time and money and effort. The whole point of these posts is that if uploaders are going to pull files at their whim because it's their right it'll fast become pointless for anyone to strat any project to share with others. Carried through to it's logic there'll be no point in Train Sim sites. What would be the point? If no one shares and we all ought to be learning it ourselves? What a bleak world that describes!!

It's obvious from the generosity, enthusiasm and tireless efforts of those who contribute and the enthusiasm and appriciation expressed by those who download that, that, is not what most people want. Frankly if anyone feels that they don't want to share their stuff then don't upload it.

On a more constructive vein I'd suggest that we set up a group to look into protecting everybodies rights. An unambiguous set of conditions to file uploading and sharing. if this rot continues it will eventually destroy all that is good about what's been achieved so far.

Geoff

[buffy500]

Frankly if anyone feels that they don't want to share their stuff then don't upload it.

That is clearly a reasonable view.

But where does it say you can never change your mind ?

The bottom line is surely that they were "given freely" but without predjidice they can be no longer given.

If I lent you a lawn mower, and you then were using that mower to offer an at cost moving service to other people, would you really have any real right to moan if I wanted my mower back 5 years later ?

And 5 years down the line, in a community which likes to think of itself as creative, why has no one else bettered these MKIIs ?
Or is the truth that in general, the community is 'living off' the work of people from years ago and doing almost nothing new for itself ?

[phat2003uk]

I don't think there's an unwillingness for modelling/skinning. Just when people see it's already been done, it puts them off a bit sometimes.

[BR7MT]

I don't think there's an unwillingness for modelling/skinning. Just when people see it's already been done, it puts them off a bit sometimes.

Then this would be a good opportunity to get new blood into the reskinning pool

Regards,

Dan

[mickrik]

Hi there,

this is one sad thread

Buffy 500 wrote

If I lent you a lawn mower, and you then were using that mower to offer an at cost moving service to other people, would you really have any real right to moan if I wanted my mower back 5 years later ?

If I lend a mower I expect it back
If I give a mower It is given for keeps

now If I upload some work. Unless it is flawed it is there for keeps. Are you suggesting that we are lending work to the comunity. I do not think so.

mickrik

[phill70]

Well, I am just about to have a crack at reskinning some MK2's so we already have some new blood.

Glyn

[champy]

Well, I am just about to have a crack at reskinning some MK2's so we already have some new blood.

Glyn

Well done Glyn, theres Plenty of opertunities to be had! Good luck.
And by saying this its not meaning you in anyway Glyn but there are alot of people that want but never give on this forum!
Sadly these people never take the time to try and see if they can
Best Wishes

Jon

[lateagain]

Hi Dave,
You've raised some good discussion points there. I've pretty much nailed my flag to the mast about this specific withdrawal and I still hope that Alex will reconsider. He's hurting those who've appreciated him and his creative efforts to get at someone else. I don't want to dwell on that. I've said my piece and the ball's entirely in his court.

Frankly if anyone feels that they don't want to share their stuff then don't upload it.

That is clearly a reasonable view.

Blimey that's a first! Someone thinking my point was reasonable

But where does it say you can never change your mind ?

Well it doesn't.....and perhaps that's the problem. I'm NOT suggesting, nor would I ever suggest that anyone should impose conditions that don't protect all parties. The trouble is that the permissions scene is all over the place at the moment. We need a rethink! We need clear cut uniform set of conditions that has choice for the uploader and is unambiguous for the file user, be they reskinner, activity writer or route builder. It just needs a bit of discussion and the drawing up of a document. I'm happy to offer time to this. It would have saved me hours of work over the last couple of years had it existed.

The bottom line is surely that they were "given freely" but without predjidice they can be no longer given.

If I lent you a lawn mower, and you then were using that mower to offer an at cost moving service to other people, would you really have any real right to moan if I wanted my mower back 5 years later ?

I'll get the joke about a "mower moving service" out of the way and move on to the serious point you've made.
Assume you've entered into an agreement to lend me your mower (hereinafter referred to as file ) I'd have asked if you were sure it was ok to keep it. Assured by your willingness to offer it I'd have put it to use. You're obviously a mate. You lent me your file (mower for those not keeping up) and so we keep in touch. If suddenly after five years you march round out of the blue and demand your mower/file back, without any explanation, by the end of the week, my first reaction is going to be hurt puzzlemet. What on Earth have I done to upset you? You're a mate after all. I've spent the last five years down the pub telling all the lads what a generous bloke you are and then out of the blue you demand your mower back. I could have bought a mower myself, but yours was excellent mower and you seemed delighted that we were getting such good use out of it. When I discover that someone I know has had a disagreement with you and that has caused your action I'm still confused. i wasn't even party to the disagreement and you didn't even discuss it with me. You just demanded your mower back.

Which brings me to your next point. Most modern mowers would be useless after 5 years anyway

And 5 years down the line, in a community which likes to think of itself as creative, why has no one else bettered these MKIIs ?
Or is the truth that in general, the community is 'living off' the work of people from years ago and doing almost nothing new for itself ?

If I could make 3-D models and you asked me to knock up a nice kettle (you are coming to like 'em a bit aren't you ) and I did an average job you'd say it needs to be better than that. As the "commissioning editor" you'd have every right to dictate standards and lay down a specification that my efforts had to comply to. If I couldn't cut the mustard then my model gets rejected and I get no reward. Here people create models and offer them freely for others to use. If a couple of hundred self appointed "commissioning editors" start mailing you telling you what's wrong with your offering or how you need to improve it you might well throw your teddy out and withdraw it. Add to this sensitivity the withdrawals of a few years ago and we get a fairly non critical audience. That's not good for development. There is such a thing as constructive criticism and there are authors (some of whom have posted in this thread) who react to this positively and who on more than one occassion have actively sought it. Perhaps a rarity amongst creative folk?

Andy and Mark did a pretty good job of the basic models and the only improvement that I'm sure they'd have made would have been to slightly rescale them. Having said that they were perfectly scaled to the Mk1's that were available at the time of their release and who can criticise that? Moving on to your wider point though I quite agree that there are many areas in the library where what is available is still what was available soon after MSTS was released. Those that have pursued 3D modelling have honed their skills and "upped" the bar still further. Perhaps that's intimidated newcomers?

As for living off work from years ago. I can't argue with that but would say that my recent efforts for MEP have shown me just how good some of those early efforts are. It's also shown me the sheer diversity of area's and era's covered. If creating stuff for MSTS2 is going to demand higher levels of skill then the more folk who learn some skills now the better. Getting involved in projects is a good path. It sets targets and pretty soon your frustration at not just being able to pick up what you want forces you to learn to reskin, forces you to confront the evil AE etc.etc. It also brings you in contact with folk who already have skill and are dying to share it.

What's this got to do with the thread? Well for development to occur you need a secure foundation. There aren't many building sites in a war zone. IMHO we need to "secure the foundation" so that folk can build stuff, build on stuff and build with stuff without fear of it being whipped away leaving them dangling.

It is achievable. It just needs a set of conditions. 1st (borrowed shamelessly from credit agreements) might be a "cooling off period" This would mean that files could only be withdrawn after a period of notice. Issues might be resolved; and if not substitutes might be arranged.

We can't keep walking on eggshells. We need to address the issues and it needs to protect everyones rioghts and interests

Geoff

[champy]

Hi there,

this is one sad thread

Buffy 500 wrote

If I lent you a lawn mower, and you then were using that mower to offer an at cost moving service to other people, would you really have any real right to moan if I wanted my mower back 5 years later ?

If I lend a mower I expect it back
If I give a mower It is given for keeps

now If I upload some work. Unless it is flawed it is there for keeps. Are you suggesting that we are lending work to the comunity. I do not think so.

mickrik

It is still your human right to be able to change your mind and withdraw something, as it is to make or not make a model to upload?
Surely the choice to do this after some years of pleasure gained from using the models isnt an issue? Its the fact that its been so widely used yet not replaced by new blood and the scenario of want want verus people doing work has hit an alltime low? Sometimes people are forgettening we are well into the twilight years of this game and all though we hate to admit it the time is nearly upon us to uninstall it.

If this sim is to carry on and surpass itself it must have new injections of theorys for George to impliment wherever possible and for new model makers and skinners to revamp the existing or to put up and make some newer models. Do we feel that we had reached the peak with Andys and Alexs Coaches? Im sure Alex and Andy would both admit the models were to the best of thier abilities at the time,but have and still can be surpassed now! So is it the change thats the issue?

Edit Dave must be telepathic as i have also covered some of his post in mine as it was done at the same time then i put my son to bed and posted.
Jon

[rlmathers]

Hi Geoff

You obviously have not read this:

Licence

This is released as freeware, and you use it at your own risk.

FOR DISTRIBUTION AS FREEWARE FOR PERSONAL, NON COMMERCIAL USE ONLY

TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF USE:

*

This model is not "public domain".
*

This model and any of it's associated files may not be retro-engineered or used for any purposes other than its original intended use without the prior written consent of the author(s).
*

Persons wishing to repaint this model may not do so without requesting permission from the authors.
*

All repainted/modified versions must acknowledge the authors of the original work.
*

The model remains copyright of Andy Dunnett and Mark Wiles
*

The textures remain the copyright of Stephen Smithson and Alexander Shaw.
*

This model or any repainted versions may not be distributed on CD without the author's prior written agreement.
*

All repaints must include this readme and all conditions of this model apply to the repaint.
*

This model or any repaint may not be uploaded to any website without the author's prior written agreement.
*

By downloading and/or using this model, you have agreed with these terms and conditions of use.

USE AT YOUR OWN RISK - the author(s) are not responsible for any damages arising from the use of these files.

THE AUTHORS' COPYRIGHTS TO ALL FILES ASSOCIATED WITH THIS MODEL ARE PROTECTED UNDER THE BERNE CONVENTION
Use of utilities or techniques to extract the texture data from the .ace or .s files will consititute an infringement on the copyrights of the author(s).

I would also suspect that UKTS have not read it either.

Kindest regards
Ray

[lateagain]

.....and that's a constructive way forward is it Ray?

Laws were drawn up by people who thought outside the box. They aren't cast in stone. They are adaptable and have been so throughout the history of civilised society.

Maybe the those laws were drawn up before anything like the internet or shareware or wider multinational communities existed.

I'm not rubbishing them.

I'm saying lets look at them and move forward. If you present them as a Brickwall you are as they say "part of the problem, not part of the solution".

How do we move forward Ray?

That's the question?

Geoff