Get them while you can

[Breedlings]

Thank you for those who have made kind remarks. Do remember though that not on UKTS does not mean unavailable.

However folks, one thing this thread has brought to light is that the list of CDs which this content is included on is longer than I thought it was, even though it misses out at least one other I have a suspicion of. What it hasn't changed though is the number of CDs for which permission was gained before production - that still sounds at a very round figure!

I have however received one complimentary CD after I was made aware by a third party that material had been included and at the present time this is the only CD for which permission has been given, albeit retrospectively.

There comes a time when you feel you have to stand up for yourself, your content, skills and the liberties that have been taken. Personally I feel it is now the time for me to do that.

With reference to what I regard as "acceptable terms" this is not the time or place and to expand any further would serve no purpose.

(edit to post was to add a comma)

[terrycunliffe]

A selection of the files under discussion are on the NWE CD, and that will now be withdrawn without question as per Alex's request.
However, after spending countless hours revising the CD after the last instance of this nature, please forgive me, but I won't be doing it again.
So, it's gone for good as far as I'm concerned.

Whether my WIP upgrade will now continue, I've not yet decided.

All I can do now is wish Alex all the best in his commercial ventures.

Terry

[sp762]

With reference to what I regard as "acceptable terms" this is not the time or place and to expand any further would serve no purpose.

Respect your right to privacy, but if your definition of 'acceptable terms' was the immediate payment of 77 billion pounds - then that would put your decision in a rather different light, wouldn't it.

[jp4712]

Thanks very much, having expended much effort on NWE 2 activities for the CD - then having had to update them and retest after January 06. I've never asked for money, or free premium membership, or anything except the knowledge that what I do is enjoyed by others.

Have a nice day.

P

[rfletcher72]

Thank you for those who have made kind remarks. Do remember though that not on UKTS does not mean unavailable.

I take it that this suggests we will see these items appear elsewhere.

To quote jp4712 "All I can do now is wish Alex all the best in his commercial ventures."

Have I just answered my own question? It would be a proper shame if these skins were to appear on payware, at the obvious detriment to the freeware community. Surely a case of biting the hand that feeds?

[lateagain]

Thank you for those who have made kind remarks. Do remember though that not on UKTS does not mean unavailable.

You really haven't thought through the implications of your actions have you? Or do you just not care about the others whose time you've trashed?

I take it that this suggests we will see these items appear elsewhere.

...and that achieves what? Frankly I'd like to see some other skinners do replacements and reinstate the status quo. Not everyone considers their efforts greater than the hundreds of others who've contributed and given of their time. In fact the majority are greatful and appreciative of others efforts and help in creating items that have steadily improved over the years. I'm sure breedlings has been happy to download the efforts of many contributors?

To quote jp4712 "All I can do now is wish Alex all the best in his commercial ventures."

Have I just answered my own question? It would be a proper shame if these skins were to appear on payware, at the obvious detriment to the freeware community. Surely a case of biting the hand that feeds?

Well if I were making a commercial add-on I'd not rush to recruit someone who'd just trashed dozens of folks work!! Muck sticks to anything it comes in contact with and as a customer I'd boycott the product anyway to support the people they'd just walked all over.

By your deadline you've two days to admit you got it wrong.

Whatever your grouse it's NOT with all the people that your action will affect. This community is based on the selfless efforts of people who freely give of their time and talents. If you've issues with UKTS that is between you and them. It's not betwen you and the other members of the community

There's no legal obligation on you to leave your skins and permissions in place. In fact you have the absolute right to withdraw them. However you do IMO have a moral obligation to leave them in place and a responsibility to the people who your actions will affect. If you leave a job and move on to pastures new ...that's life. If you leave a job and trash all the work you did you'd find it hard to get another one.

Are you man enough to admit you've got it wrong?

Geoff

[jbilton]

Hi
It all seems to be getting a bit 'hot under the collar'.
Firstly I believe the stock being discussed is coaches, so substitution is not really a massive amount of work.
I personally hope Terry will continue with V3 of NWE, which would require all new activities.These would hopefully utilise more advanced MSTS stock which is available.
I also note that it might be thought that Alex is being 'pouched' commercially, actually he has always been one of the founders of MT.
I imagine that MT do wish to use the excellent coaches on Scottish Central,and possibly think it would look strange to include what is technically freeware stock in a commercial route.(It might even being imposed by the publisher?)
I also appreciate that there are those that say they 'need' UKTS CDs, however personally I still think this is a lack or unwillingness to learn how MSTS works.
Bite the bullet, and your enjoyment of the hobby will increase 100 fold.
UKTS is the only MSTS site in the world that produces these semi commercial products, other communities seem to survive without them.
Cheers
Jon

[ianmacmillan]

Seems to me that you are upset because you did not recieve a free copy of the CDs containing your work.

But did you ask?

Most CDs contain item from hundreds of people, many of whom have left the community or cannot be contacted.
The route authors, CD compilers and UKTS cannot be sure who wants or is entitled to a CD.

They also need to be told your postal address.

A simple email or PM to Pete will result on a CD dropping thru your door in a couple of days.
If you are unsure if a CD contains your work, just ask. Pete will check or, more likely just send the CD anyway.

[rwaceyw]

A few bits of my work have appeared on CDs without me knowing....and i've never had a copy of the CD. But to be honest I couldn't give a fuss....it's more of an honour that my work is good enough for the CD than anything!

Dave

[lateagain]

Some good points here Jon and as such they deserve a seperate response.

Hi
It all seems to be getting a bit 'hot under the collar'.

No temperature rise my side of the table Jon and if plain speaking raises others then that was not my intention. My points are I think quite clear. Nothing here exists in isolation. Commercial add-ons need the freeware community to retain interest in the Sim and vice versa. MT is now one of only two major players in the UK commercial scene and I have a great deal of repect for their work.

Firstly I believe the stock being discussed is coaches, so substitution is not really a massive amount of work.
I personally hope Terry will continue with V3 of NWE, which would require all new activities.These would hopefully utilise more advanced MSTS stock which is available.

Indeed I would hope that if the skins are withdrawn, and I do hope Alex will change his mind, that there is enough good will out there for people yo knuckle down and replace them as they did before? As you rightly observe we've all learned a lot since these models were originally released and standards have steadily increased. Such development can only happen in this environment as commercial add-ons have deadlines and a fixed production period. Those who do commercial work have doubtless spent time learning their skills and observing others in the many sites that exist for our hobby.

I also note that it might be thought that Alex is being 'pouched' commercially, actually he has always been one of the founders of MT.
I imagine that MT do wish to use the excellent coaches on Scottish Central,and possibly think it would look strange to include what is technically freeware stock in a commercial route.(It might even being imposed by the publisher?)

Alex has undoubtedly done some nice skins for Andy and marks models but they're nearly five years old now. MT has produced Great Eastern since then and produced an excellent stock pack with it. Why would they need files from the freeware library? and even if they did what's wrong with that? A photographer can hold his copyright and choose to allow the image to be used by various publications. How is this different? MT's routes are some of the best out there. I cannot believe that the success of Scottish Central depends on this!

I also appreciate that there are those that say they 'need' UKTS CDs, however personally I still think this is a lack or unwillingness to learn how MSTS works.
Bite the bullet, and your enjoyment of the hobby will increase 100 fold.

I wholeheartedly agree with your second point here Jon but the CD's are surely about choice? Not everyone is technically adept. The success of Games Boxes surely proves how most people want to interact with computer gaming?

UKTS is the only MSTS site in the world that produces these semi commercial products, other communities seem to survive without them.

Not entirely true. Loads of add-ons are now available by Disc and download from small sites set up to distribute reskins. You might argue that these are fully "commercial" but I'd suggest they were hardly commercial set ups. They're making a buck from their own efforts but usually charge more for it than UKTS. I just don't see the issues here. Nobody has to buy or subscribe to anything. It's freedom of choice. Isn't that what we're supposed to stand for?

What does come to the fore again is the need to create a mutually acceptable terms of use for uploaders and downloaders. The creators ALL need to be protected from the actions of others, and the users need to know that what they've spent hour's enjoying and sharing isn't going to be snatched away from them. Without some security of files eventually no one will be willing to spend time creating routes and activities with the knowledge that hours of work can be destroyed by an individuals action?

Put simply if you don't want to share equally (give and take) don't take part. That might sound blunt but I'm happy to listen to sensible discussion on this.

Geoff

[rwaceyw]

it would look strange to include what is technically freeware stock in a commercial route

It's been done quite a few times before however, and as said, I doubt Mk2 coaches are the 'make or break' point for Scottish Capital Express.

Dave

[jbilton]

it would look strange to include what is technically freeware stock in a commercial route

It's been done quite a few times before however, and as said, I doubt Mk2 coaches are the 'make or break' point for Scottish Capital Express.

Dave

Just trying to offer a possible explanation, as I continued it might be a requirement of the publishers.

Cheers
Jon

[jbilton]

UKTS is the only MSTS site in the world that produces these semi commercial products, other communities seem to survive without them.

Not entirely true. Loads of add-ons are now available by Disc and download from small sites set up to distribute reskins. You might argue that these are fully "commercial" but I'd suggest they were hardly commercial set ups. They're making a buck from their own efforts but usually charge more for it than UKTS. I just don't see the issues here. Nobody has to buy or subscribe to anything. It's freedom of choice. Isn't that what we're supposed to stand for?

What does come to the fore again is the need to create a mutually acceptable terms of use for uploaders and downloaders. The creators ALL need to be protected from the actions of others, and the users need to know that what they've spent hour's enjoying and sharing isn't going to be snatched away from them. Without some security of files eventually no one will be willing to spend time creating routes and activities with the knowledge that hours of work can be destroyed by an individuals action?

Put simply if you don't want to share equally (give and take) don't take part. That might sound blunt but I'm happy to listen to sensible discussion on this.

Geoff

Hi Geoff
And that is not entirely true, as some routes are only made available on CD.
However it has been a stance of UKTS, that files can be withdrawn at the authors discretion.
Cheers
Jon

[Baily9531]

UKTS is the only MSTS site in the world that produces these semi commercial products, other communities seem to survive without them.

Not entirely true. Loads of add-ons are now available by Disc and download from small sites set up to distribute reskins. You might argue that these are fully "commercial" but I'd suggest they were hardly commercial set ups. They're making a buck from their own efforts but usually charge more for it than UKTS. I just don't see the issues here. Nobody has to buy or subscribe to anything. It's freedom of choice. Isn't that what we're supposed to stand for?

What does come to the fore again is the need to create a mutually acceptable terms of use for uploaders and downloaders. The creators ALL need to be protected from the actions of others, and the users need to know that what they've spent hour's enjoying and sharing isn't going to be snatched away from them. Without some security of files eventually no one will be willing to spend time creating routes and activities with the knowledge that hours of work can be destroyed by an individuals action?

Put simply if you don't want to share equally (give and take) don't take part. That might sound blunt but I'm happy to listen to sensible discussion on this.

Geoff

Hi Geoff
And that is not entirely true, as some routes are only made available on CD.
However it has been a stance of UKTS, that files can be withdrawn at the authors discretion.
Cheers
Jon

TBH, to save alot of future hassle perhaps one of the condidtions and terms of you uploading stuff should be once its available to download then it is forever, only special circumstances could it be removed and the author would have to go through the site admin to get it removed, personnally i dont think it would put many people off uploading items.

[rlmathers]

Well here we are again, withdrawl of content.
Content providers have the right to withdraw their material and the right to grant permission or deny it`s use. They have no moral obligation to either UKTS or to anyone who may download such material. It is freely given and freely downloaded.
Once you depart from those principles, you are down the road of commercialism.
A new set of rules apply and unless they are contractual to all parties, litigation from the aggrevied may be the result.
Whether you call them community disks and charge £4.50 makes not the slightest difference they are no longer free to obtain.
I would strongly advise UKTS and those who may contribute to such CD`s to agree terms.
I understand perfectly why the CD`s are so popular, but like so many other things in life, taking a short cut can lead you on the wrong path and a mess soon turns into a nightmare.
Using a CD teaches you absolutely nothing about the vagaries of MSTS, only inherent errors are passed on to the user, then the questions start in the forum why doesn`t this work?
I would encourage all to download routes, stock and any other item individually and lets support everyone in their endeavours.

Kindest regards
Ray