Today's 11:35 Edinburgh-Exeter VT Voyager badly overcrowded

[yorkie2k]

HUNDREDS of passengers were turned away at Leeds, even those with seat reservations, for the 14:57 departure to Exeter. It is not known what time the train arrived at Leeds, but it was certainly there for a long time and the police were involved.

ALL the aisles were completely full (even in club class) in every coach, and all the vestibules were as full as could be. Yet there were still hundreds on the platform.

All passengers for Sheffield were forced onto slow Arriva stopping trains (which take up to 1 hour longer than Virgin trains and are infrequent on Sundays).

The train was at least 30 minutes late on departure from Leeds but at the time of writing is now around 70 minutes late, possibly due to similar occurances such as this occuring at other stations.

Please note that the local Sheffield train, which was due to depart at 15:08, left Leeds late just as these photos were being taken, so the people shown in these photos are those who went AGAINST the advice to catch the local Arriva stopping service, so the actual number of people who wanted to catch the train was probably a lot more!

The next southbound Virgin train after that was the 16:07 Plymouth service, but at 16:40 this was STILL AT YORK! It was an HST but there appeared to be NO problem with the train but I have no idea what the problem was with that service, but it must have been cancelled eventually as it has now dissapeared from the online arrivals boards at the National Rail site.

Overall a VERY bad day for Virgin!

[Goingnorth]

Virgin are going to lose a lot of customers unless they sort out these issues, hopefully september 30th timetable change will go some way to solving the problems...I doubt it though..

[nigelgresley]

I agree with that about VT, but can I say that GNER trains that leave KingsX at around 8:30 are not exactly sparesly populated either! I was particularly annoyed to the treatment of an elderly couple who were going from York to Edinburgh, first of all the tannoy at York directed them to the wrong platform, so they got onto a train to Doncaster rather than the north bound train on which they had reserved seats.

They got onto a north bound train at Doncaster, and I joined the train at York, I found I had to stand in the door area (along with 7 other people) of coach C, the door area of the ajoining coach B was eaqually packed. I had got out of my little tip up seat (as provided in these areas of Mk4's) to let this elderly couple sit down (the gentlman still had to sit on his case, as the person who had been sitting beside me would not move). They related their story to me, and it was suggested by me and other passengers that they ask the guard to find them somewhere 'proper' to sit. There were no seats at all in the standard class of the train (this was related by someone who had walked the entire length of standard class looking for a seat). When the guard eventualy turned up to check tickets from York the elderly couple asked if seats could be found, the guard's response was to grunt and wander off to check tickets further up the train.

I travel often enough to know that this was a fairly isolated incident, however, it would have given people who travel less often a rather different idea of GNER. The rudeness and un-charitability of the GNER guard is above for all to see. I got off the train at Newcastle (the woman was still on the tip up seat and the gentleman still on the case) and I watched the train depart and each standard class coach was packed to capacity, and guess what... first class was virutally empty, so I can't see why the guard could not have given them an upgrade. I don't want to be seen to be ranting here, but at times the railway industry does not give a very good account of itself.

[markw]

I don't think it's the Voyager's fault that it's running on an infrequent timetable it wasn't designed to cope with.

In any case, just who is going to pay to keep lots of coaches in tip top condition so they can be wheeled out every Friday, Sunday and Bank Holiday in the summer? Either we subsidise the railways to the hilt, closing all the hospitals and schools to pay for them as no-one will vote for higher taxes, or the railway cuts the suit to fit the cloth. Or everyone pays full fare and there's no discount travel in order to fund the increased rolling stock costs.

Take your pick.

[stevenmosby]

heh heh.... it was a good day and seeing that crowded voyager was good!

When you left York, they announced what was wrong with the 43 on the far platform - there were "train troubles" and it began offloading

[stevenmosby]

All passengers for Sheffield were forced onto slow Arriva stopping trains (which take up to 1 hour longer than Virgin trains and are infrequent on Sundays).

Very - the next train to sheffield departed at 14:40 i think, and the next wasnt until 15:40..!

[yorkie2k]

mark - I have a better suggestion. How about not having pointless wars and military operations, and the money we save can then go to the railways and we can still invest in schools and hospitals? No, I forgot, no chance - we have Bla*r as a PM who follows B*sh like a dog follows his owner

[markw]

I agree but this country has a several centuries old tradition of fighting wars at enormous expense to the economy, so that ain't about to change.

I assume today is the drift back to Uni for students judging by the number of young backpackers on the platform? If so I remember when I was a student (although I didn't have to travel a long distance - Walsall to Perry Barr!) my friends used to say even then the trains would be wedged, and we're talking the early 80's with loco hauled and IC125 on XC services. There really isn't a solution to this kind of super-peak which everyone knows is going to happen but no-one is willing to pay the costs of having the stock to cope and then lie idle until Christmas.

You only have to look across the Channel where French Railways built huge numbers of TGV to cater for the Holiday Peaks - most of which sit idle in the week - and have one of the biggest debt problems of any European rail network despite the huge numbers of people using their system.

It's sad that the traditional turn-up and go system is being eroded as fixed formation trains take over. However, fixed formation trains have been the norm now in this country (and increasingly elsewhere) for many years - even loco hauled West Coast and East Coast trains won't be strengthened for peaks like this - so Voyager or not, this could have happened even with loco hauled trains.

[crosscountry]

and who do you suggest as an alternative. IDS would haev already attacked Iraq 'cos he has less of a conscience than Blair.
In defence of Voyager, the timetables to the North East are highly irregular and extra sets are tied up at weekends running west coast shuttles because of engineering works between Stafford and Birmingham.
That means only 4 cars where some trains would usually run with 8.
Train failures add to troubles, I suppose until we get a regualar XC timetable in September this'll be the case.
I've seen the first train north from Preston on a Sunday with the same problem, and that was a HST set.
People with reservations should not be asked to leave, turn up and go tickets should be penalised. If people can travel on an alternative service and aren't going a long way, I'm afraid that when something like this happens it should be them that make a sacrifice first.
We all know this isn't a common occurance, but regretable non the less.
However, overcrowding is a fact of life, why pick on this case just 'cos its a Voyager?
You guys and you're prejudices are sad.

[crosscountry]

I think you might be right about the uni issue, some of the old poly's will be going back in.
You'll get it on all Sundays over the next four or five weeks.
I remember my uni days, crammed into GNER MK4 sets between York and Durham.
XC suffers badly 'cos it connects a lot of big centres of population, not to mention uni towns.
He's right, whats the point of investing in stock for Superpeaks when it sits idle for most of the time.
Virgin are working on a maximum occupancy theory to make CrossCountry financially viable, and that means turn up and pay passengers have to, and I'm afraid deserve to suffer.

[yorkie2k]

Most Uni's aren't back yet!

I'm not "picking on it 'cos it's a Voyager", I'm picking on it because it has only 5 cars!

I have similarly "picked on" the Arriva 158s which can be as crowded (except all passengers have managed to get on like sardines rather than some of them get on as sardines, and the other few hundred end up stranded - that hasn't happened yet that I've seen). I just don't have any photos of the appauling Arriva services being overcrowded.

But I'm not complaining about the type of trains (although it isn't perfect) - its the number of cars on them that's nothing short of RIDICULOUS. It's almost as though they don't want additional customers!

Turn up and go passengers suffer enough with very high fares. If this railway becomes airline-ised/Americanised (I say that because in America you have to book many Amtrak trains in advance, and the same applies to airlines) then we will be taking steps backwards not forwards. WHY are some people and some companies so NEGATIVE towards turn up and go (the majority - surely?!) of passengers?!

There is NO excuse for short trains!

PS: it's "your prejudices" not "you're prejudices", are you sure you're a journalist?

[Kevo00]

In any case, just who is going to pay to keep lots of coaches in tip top condition so they can be wheeled out every Friday, Sunday and Bank Holiday in the summer? Either we subsidise the railways to the hilt, closing all the hospitals and schools to pay for them as no-one will vote for higher taxes, or the railway cuts the suit to fit the cloth. Or everyone pays full fare and there's no discount travel in order to fund the increased rolling stock costs.

Wouldn't keeping extra coaches to deal with the overload mean that the railway would be able to fund itself better because more people paid fares. I wonder how many travel vouchers Virgin will have to give out over that little episode. Of course this really has little to do with subsidies and more to do with the basic fault in Virgin's design for the Voyager - too few coaches for an express.

When the tiddly Caledonian Railway (Brechin) is better placed than a company with a near national system to cope with the passenger demand there has to be something seriously wrong somewhere...

[markw]

One other thing.

I seem to remember back in the days of Steam the Western Region introduced "Regulation Trains" to the West Country from places like Paddington and Birmingham. Despite all the spare stock around then, despite strengthening as much as the Devon banks would allow, there was insufficient space for demand for train travel to the West Country. You were only allowed onto the platform if you had a ticket AND a reservation card. And still people would end up standing.

If, fifty years ago, when the railways were a nationalised service that at that time no-one much cared about the cost of running, rationed access controls had to be put in place in the super-peak, why should we expect the railways today, which have been legally bound to run as a commercial business (and since the 1968 Transport Act, an "Old Labour" piece of legislation, NOT privatisation) to provide infinate capacity at all times?

[markw]

Wouldn't keeping extra coaches to deal with the overload mean that the railway would be able to fund itself better because more people paid fares. I wonder how many travel vouchers Virgin will have to give out over that little episode. Of course this really has little to do with subsidies and more to do with the basic fault in Virgin's design for the Voyager - too few coaches for an express.

The short answer is No. The cost of rolling stock - and sidings to keep them in, people to maintain them etc. is hugely expensive in the current railway set up. You simply will not be able to fill a 14 coach train from Leeds to Exeter at 2pm on a wet Wednesday in November.

Remember, before privatisation InterCity achieved one of the best financial performances of any long haul rail network in the world. The then Thatcher Government had set a target of it recieving nil subsidy. Now, virtually all the former InterCity network is being subsidised by the Government/SRA and is costing more in subsidy to run than under BR. That's with probably only slightly more rolling stock in use.

The cost of rolling stock leasing has stopped many a re-opening, or led to less frequent services than desirable, since privatisation.

[yorkie2k]

mark, when you pay around £60 for a ticket valid on "any train" you expect to be able to travel. OK so you may not have a seat but you still expect to be able to travel despite other people paying only £20 for the same journey because they bought a cheap advance ticket.

If we decide to ration journeys and make everything advance-only, then railways would lose out to the motorcar or buses for almost every journey.

All we need is for Virgin, Arriva and other offenders to do what C2C, GNER, and other good companies do well.