Voyager out...Come back loco hauled trains all is forgiven!

[warriorgoku]

With a loco hauled train, you not only need a good loco but a good set of carriages. Are the mk4s still ok, or do we need something new?

The mk4s are fine for me and many other passengers, but something new might be worthwhile.

[Goingnorth]

I would guess the mark 5s will be similar to Voyager/pendolino coaches..complete with at-seat entertainment, shops etc. Only you wouldn't have to put up with the underfloor noise.

Anyway, has anyone managed to get on a Pendolino yet? What's it like please?

[RobindeJones]

Do you really think there will be a MK5? I thought the days of the 'standard coach' were now all but past. I know that MK4's are in theory a standalone coach, but the reality is that all of them work in sets, the only variety being the occasional 90, and the DVT on t'other end.
I suspect the future will hold 'train sets', ie ICE Eurostar etc. Loco hauled coaches are not considered economical these days, nor are they pratical in consideration of the ammount of runround facilities now removed.
I guess the best way foward will be a HST MK2 set, although there was an article in Rail a couple of years back (1999?) saying the whichever company now owned the HST copyright type thing, would not be prepared to go back to it. Anyone else remeber that one?
On the other hand lets see whether the Seimens dual powere job ever sees the light of day, It's based on the Desiro concept, but with proper coaches in the middle.
Its FRiday evening - must leave work!

Robin

[SuperOwl]

It would be great to see voyagers on the tpx route that would mean we could have some of the 158s running between Leeds and Sheffield and the voyagers would run between Manchester pic and cleethopes via Sheffield n Doncaster. We need new trains between Sheffield n Leeds I dont like going via Barnsley 1h,30m GOOOOOOOOOOOOOODDDDDDDDDDD

[RobindeJones]

Cant agree more. Voyages on TP franchise means a load of cascaded 158's, which are a good train for local travel. Plus the cascade of 153s 156's etc (not quite as nice!). Then we can finally put four wheels on the pacers (O sorry thats all they've got anyway!) stick tyres on them, and flog them to Stagecoaches as Buses!

Robin

[AlanP46]

they are comfy.

lol

spacious

lol again. Has been proved on UKR that they have less space per person than a pacer at 17"

huge windows.

...that don't align with the windows

Virgin's original spec for XC demanded a loco haul option for really long distances but presumably manfacturers didn't see such a small order as viable.

Wrong!!! Bombardier offered a loco-hauled option, but VT decided it did not fit in with their operation princess game plan.

It's going to be much, much worse next summer when the holiday traffic starts, as explained before.

Alan

[AlanP46]

A MK V coach would probably be based on the Bombardier / SNCB I6 (I think that's what it's called anyway), which has a similar though more refined less squashed design than the 220. They are used on IC services between Oostende and Luxembourg (some to Hamburg), etc... and are quite nice. Air Con, plug doors, clean crisp livery that fits the design.

The M6 is nice as well - but too big for our loading guage - similar to the I6, but double deck

Alan

[Goingnorth]

Yes it's amazing that other countries go for double-deck trains - although of course the lucky sods can get away with it with their loading gauge - and long 'proper' trains...yet we go for 4 car 'buses' on our IC trains.

No, quite right, loco hauled trains are finished. Quite right, very few run-around facilities and worse still even less shunters to to the coupling...AND they are all empoyed by different companies!!

As I've said before I'm a big fan of push-push, cos you can still have 'proper' trains and they are operationally effecient. Virgin should have gone for the other Voyager build, which was loco-hauled push pull. But they say 5 (or less) car trains central to their plans....big mistake!

[JohnEyres]

Aha! Just to confuse you even more that sounds like topping and tailing for a diversion maybe.

At one stage, Virgin's trains to Portsmouth Harbour were regularly worked Top 'n' Tail. Because of 'operational' restrictions a 47 was attached at New street and worked down to Portsmouth...albeit dead. Basically a 120 ton dead weight of the back or 3 extra coaches.

The operational restrictions were: No Virgin shunting staff, no run-around facilities and no outbased Virgin locos.

That Maybe happend a few years back but over the last two years the last 47 diagram to down there, the Blackpool-Portsmouth and return was top and tailed because of no run round facilities at Portsmout & south sea. The 47s cant go into the Harbour station any more because of weight restrictions. In fact the train did carry shunting staff during the end as it wasnt top & tailed. A loco would come from Eastliegh depot to take the return working. The loco which brough it in would then go off to Eastliegh. Thats why when I used to see it the train would return up north with a different loco. Same situration at Blackpool north. A loco would take the stock into the resort in the morning and return light to Preston. As another loco followed it and worked down to Portsmouth. At the end of the day on the return the same loco from Preston would drag the whole lot back to Longsight.
Now you know why they are getting rid of loco hauleds!

[snowcrashandy]

Cascaded Mk III Coaches and DVTs from the WCML post Pendolino, 12 Class 57/3s under conversion, a TDM fitted 57/3 with a push/pull Mk III rake adds up to a reasonable alternative to the Voyager/Pendolino concept.

It might be a plausible answer for other TOCs too. Once all those Mk IIIs come off lease they might be available relatively cheaply to other TOCs.

Just a thought!

Andy.

[Goingnorth]

Yes I can think of some good routes they could be used on:

Edinburgh-Glasgow
Edinburgh/Glasgow-Aberdeen
Edinburgh/Glasgow-Inverness
Some Trans-pennine services
Waterloo-Exeter
Liverpool Street-Norwich

[crosscountry]

MK3's are over 20 years old. The last thing Cross Country wanted was hand me downs.
I'm sorry Alan, I know you're desperate for Voyager to fail, but come on, whats the worse that can happen, they'll be overcrowded on a few services in the summer, Virgin will go back to Bombadier and order trailers for the sets.
There will probably be a second Cross Country order when a HST replacement comes available, but as GNER, MML and GNER seem quite happy then, I don't think it'll happen for a while.
Lets wait and see what happens with operation princess, eh?
Then, if it all goes wrong I will come up to Manchester on my "cramped" Voyager from Bristol and kiss you're backwards thinking .!
I'm sorry, but I hate it when people reject something outright just 'cos its different, or not what they would have done, or they don't like it.
Most of the seats line up with windows, you don't have an arrangement like the MK2's 'cos of the airline seats and you never will again
The ride is better than a MK4
The a/c is better than a MK3
The shop was a bad idea.
As for re-using old technology, re-built locos, hand me down coaches and DVT's, such a british attitude, "hey lets work it 'till its completely f£%^*d and then try and squeeze an extra 20 years of life out of it, 'cos its cheeper and won't upset a few enthusiasts.

[JohnEyres]

I would say Anglia would benifit from this arrangment if it were considered. They operate on some non-electrified routes and have to borrow Res 47 from EWS. Also the Edinburgh-Glasgow-Aberdeen could do better than whatever is being used on their today. What are they, 158s? Waterloo-Exeter wouldnt work very well. Besides, the 159s do a good job along there and are pretty good timekeepers and fast. A loco hauling stock simply wouldnt cut it on a stop-start route such as this one. Remember when some 47s were used along here on the early 90s? They werent as good as the class 50s but even they were nearly as bad. It has to be said that 50s were never designed for stop-start duties.

[MartinH]

I can't really comment on the Voyager as I haven't been on one yet, but in general I prefer "proper trains", whether the loco is in front or behind, on long distance runs. I know that the modern dmus are quieter, but after sitting on one for several hours the noise of the engine can still drive you up the wall. The 158s are particularly bad, especially with seats that are designed to make your arse ache after a couple of hours. I had my first ride on a 175 today and was impressed, although the journey wasn't really long enough to comment properly. (I'm sure that someone with more experience of them will tell me how wrong I am).

I haven't come across the onboard entertainment yet, but was very impressed by the "tropical simulator" that Virgin had on the Manchester-London service today (proper train). As soon as I boarded the train I was instantly reminded of the moment that I stepped off the plane in New Orleans last summer. For those of you who don't know, New Orleans is on the banks of the Mississippi and is surrounded by the Louisiana swamps. It is very hot and very very humid. I personally couldn't understand the problem. Everyone else was demanding free drinks and filling in complaints forms, while I simply closed my eyes and imagined myself riding on the Nachez paddle steamer and strolling up Bourbon Street drinking Hurricanes. It's just a pity that they also switched on the night-time simulator whenever we went through a tunnel.



Martin

[crosscountry]

there's that MK3 air conditioning I was on about, oh yeah and the lights are dodgy.
To be honest, you don't notice the engine that much on the 220 except when pulling away, like on the 175 most of the noise is the Air Con and the fancy brakes .
The 221 has more horsepower so is slightly more intrusive but still notthing like a 158
I beleive Scotrail is going to stump for Voyager for Edinburgh to Glasgow, over which they currently run 158's and 170 (I was at Waverley the other week, my missus thought the 170's were "pretty")
175's are good trains, but unreliable.
As I said before the thing with Virgin's plan is designed to introduce frequency and punctuality. The advantage of 4, 5 or ever 6 car Voyagers is that they accelerate quicker than either LHCS or Push/Pull so can be operated more frequently and make up time quicker after delays.
I have been on a 4 car 220 which did Newcastle- Durham in 9 and a half minutes, (12 behind a '91) and ended up being signal checked at Framwellgate Moor running behind the non stop Flying Scotsman (it was filling in after a HST set had failed at the depot)
I tink operation princess will be a success, passengers will warm to the new trains, and booking ahead, and maybe Alan might shut up (well not maybe the last one)
As my mate said of Voyager "they're really good, man I haven't been that comfy from Stoke to Manchester in ages, even the loos are huge so that we can all skip the fare!!!!"
Incidentally the loo on a Voyager is bigger than the house I lived in during my second year of uni.
Anyhow, erm, bon voyager (bad pun) Class 47's and 86's, may you all have a great time at the big signalling failure in the sky.