Tim Courts original MidEast Route

[USRailFan]

If you check out the downloads library under "Routes", I think you'll find it easily enough...

Does anyone know if the author of the steam-era conversion has any plans to update it when MidEastPlus is released?

[ashgray]

You could try PMing dikkidee and asking if he has any plans...

Cheers
Ashley

[systema]

You will be able to run steam on MideastPlus.

There are several coal and watering points placed at strategic locations in addition to diesel refuelling points. The only thing is most of the signalling is electric searchlight rather than semaphore, but on the more rural lines there are plenty of semaphores.

However, if the author of the steam era UK felt inclined to produce a SteamPlus version I would have no problem with this.

Mick Clarke

[thenudehamster]

Thing is with msts, you can run anything anywhere; it's not a true-to-life thing, it's a game, and a simulation, so 'what if' scenarios are a piece of cake. It's a rare route that's long enough to require any locomotive to be refuelled, so the lack of, or addition of, refuelling poinst is simply a matter of realism and interest (thanks, Mick, for including them, and reminding me, though).

As for signalling, the GE line between Liverpool Street and Chelmsford/Southend, as I mentioned earlier, had four-aspect colour light signalling in 1949, and 1500volt electrification, but still got the first bunch of BR Standard 7 steamers in 1951/2 and a raft of diesels when they started appearing in quantity a few years later. It was quite normal to see a sliding door EMU, a slammer EMU, a four-wheeled diesel railbus, a steam hauled express, a diesel hauled express, steam goods, and diesel goods in the space of a couple of hours at Romford Station. About the only thing that hadn't happened was containerisation, so pretty well all freight was four wheel vans and wagons, and mostly unfitted.

Which all goes to show that no matter how outlandish your idea, it's probably already happened on British metals at some time on our history.
You want to run a steam service on an electrified, colour signalled route? Go for it - who's going to stop you?

BarryH - thenudehamster

[systema]

How many miles does the average MSTS steamer go before it needs more water, assuming it was full at the start?

Mick Clarke

[thenudehamster]

How many miles does the average MSTS steamer go before it needs more water, assuming it was full at the start?

Mick Clarke

Which piece of string are you trying to measure, Mick?
I'd guess we're talking on the order of a couple of hundred miles, give or take, for the likes of an A3 or A4 on the ECML, but all the factors of driving skill will vary that in the sim as much as in real life. It's a difficult question to make definite assertions about as, despite all the efforts of supergoods, Joe Realmuto and crick14a, .eng files are notoriously inaccurate in so many respects that the whole subject is as much guesswork as engineering.
Aren't too many msts routes in the UK of over two hundred route miles on the mainline. Dorset Coast and Thames Mersey come immediately to mind, and I seem to recall driving something from more or less one end of T-M to the other without getting critically short of coal or water - and Laurie's Tangmere activity on DC3 doesn't seem to suffer, either. I'll check the consumption on the next kettle I blast around, and try to remember to let you know....


BarryH - thenudehamster

[Lad491]

On TM the Black 5 which was on the original CD would easily go from London to Liverpool and back on one tender of coal and water It was so hopelessly inaccurate that i resorted to reducing the starting levels to make it harder for people to do a one way run without running out.

and Laurie's Tangmere activity on DC3 doesn't seem to suffer, either

From Waterloo to Weymouth you have just enough coal (normally arriving with about 1% left) but plenty of water - i think from memory:)

From Weymouth to Eastleigh you will have run out of both by Eastleigh.

But both of those results are due to my tweaking of the quantities available at the start for the purposes of the activity.

[BR7MT]

I have taken the BATS Bulleid light pacific with a rake of Pullmans from Euston to Liverpool and back (so pretty up to date when it comes to the accuracy of the physics files). Sustained running at high speed required me to re-fill the tender with water at Crewe on the outward journey, and again on the return leg. I also refilled the coal bunker at Crewe on the return leg to be on the safe side.

In theory you shouldn't need to add too many watering and coaling facilities to MidEastPlus, but their inclusion is much appreciated

Regards,

Dan

[systema]

Dan,

Thanks for the info. The Bats Pacific gives figures something like I was expecting, though in real life I think water was used much quicker than MSTS reckons. However, its about 150 miles to Crewe from Euston. I seem to remember (just about) that there were several water pick up troughs up the WCML between London and Crewe, suggesting there was no way a train could get to Crewe without taking on board extra water, but that may be wrong.

Anyway its 188 miles to York from KX so some extra water's going to be needed for locos like the Bulleid Pacific. Its getting on for 200 miles to the current end of the route north of York, and without extra water you wont get past Doncaster.

Plus has platform end watering at Huntingdon, Grantham and Retford on the ECML. This should be enough to give a range of stopping and refill opportunities for steamers.

I think the Flying Scotsman did non stop runs to Edinburgh with two tenders up. I don't know much about this but suspect they were longer than normal and the second one carried mostly water. Not sure if there were any troughs anywhere on the ECML.

Mick Clarke

[jbilton]

Hi Mick
Not a steam man...but the LNER certainly did run through non stop.
Gresley was a kind man and built the tender with a corridor...so the relief crew sat in the first coach until ready.
I believe Stannier wasn't so kind...no corridor.
If you want to know the positions of the troughs..you need someone like Rick Gibb.
Although having said that, I believe they were all gone by 1970...along with most water columns and coal stages.
I think this is why Flying Scotsman was converted to twin tenders by Mr Pegler in 1969 or thereabouts.
Cheers
Jon

[ianmacmillan]

Water was rarely a problem in steam days. There were water columns at all but the smallest stations and troughs on the main line.

What limited a loco was coal capacity.

A 4MT tank could work a train for the 60miles from London to Brighton or Edinburgh to Glasgow but could not run the 100 miles from Glasgow to Carlisle.
But the same loco could not do the Brighton run on a stopping goods where the mileage could be doubled by shunting moves. That is why tank engines were rare on goods trains except on short trips and branches.

Unfortunately finding out what distance a loco could run on a tender or bunker full of coal is difficult.

[thenudehamster]

I'll happily bow to the superior knowledge of those who actually worked the rails, but my impression is that a lot of watering facilities were provided for a 'just in case' situation. Neither columns nor troughs were phenomenally expensive to install, so a few extra here and there wasn't a big drain on resources. It's a little like petrol/gas stations on the road; it's very rare that a truck driver will run down to the last dregs in the fuel tank, just in case there's a holdup, or the next station is closed. He'll fill up with plenty of time, often at the same stop he takes a meal break. Similar thing with steam railways, I feel; while it may well be possible to run from Euston to Crewe or further without watering, why chance it? The other thought is that a lot of the facilities were provided in the days when water and coal consumption were proportionately heavier than in later years.
Coal, of course, was a lot more difficult and expensive to store and handle than water, which explains why coaling facilities are less frequent, and long distance locomotives had massive coal capacity, but not such enormous water tanks. You could pipe water to a platform end without too much grief, and put in troughs, but no-one has yet devised how to get a couple of tons of coal into a tender at 60mph...
And yes, Pegler's second tender on 'Flying Scotsman' was pure water tank, simply because by that time there were no 'on the fly' watering facilities left - and not that many at stops either. Must have taken an age to fill with the average garden hose

Back to the MSTS physics - though I reiterate my point about the work done by so many to get .eng files accurate - my feeling as with many others, is that locos used a lot more water in reality than they do in the sim; coal, in the best files, seems to burn at a more reasonable rate.

[Lad491]

I think the Flying Scotsman did non stop runs to Edinburgh with two tenders up

I had the privilege of being on one such run once in 1969. Non stop from KingsX to Edinburgh. 20 minute break while the loco was turned and then back non stop again. And yes - the second tender was water only.

What a fantastic day that was, one i shall certainly never, ever forget. FS ran for long distances at over 100mph - despite a notional 60 mph limit (i think). On the reverse run i timed it at 105mph through Rugby over a full mile.

I still have the souvenier T towel

[systema]

On the reverse run i timed it at 105mph through Rugby over a full mile.

Crikey! What was FS doing there? Have I got my geography wrong. I seem to have missed that station out.

Mick

[USRailFan]

I'll happily bow to the superior knowledge of those who actually worked the rails, but my impression is that a lot of watering facilities were provided for a 'just in case' situation. Neither columns nor troughs were phenomenally expensive to install, so a few extra here and there wasn't a big drain on resources. It's a little like petrol/gas stations on the road; it's very rare that a truck driver will run down to the last dregs in the fuel tank, just in case there's a holdup, or the next station is closed. He'll fill up with plenty of time, often at the same stop he takes a meal break. Similar thing with steam railways, I feel; while it may well be possible to run from Euston to Crewe or further without watering, why chance it? The other thought is that a lot of the facilities were provided in the days when water and coal consumption were proportionately heavier than in later years.

Isn't it much the same with planes? They fill the tanks to capacity at nearly every landing, even tho they may only need half that amount of fuel (if even that).